Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out of
the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
add AMMOLOCK.

Rich
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
m...
Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say
to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change
the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
that better?

Rich


"Lilly" wrote in message
ups.com...
If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill

I'd use more Ammolock and less water changes of such high percentages. I'm
wondering if your Ammolock is good enough. Does this stuff have an
expiration date? I prefer the dry forms of this chemical. ~ jan

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500, "Richard Holub" wrote:

Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out of
the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
add AMMOLOCK.

Rich
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...
Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say
to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change
the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
that better?

Rich


"Lilly" wrote in message
ups.com...
If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill









~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I would be thrilled if the water out of my tap stayed stable at any
reasonable pH. The water here has less than 1 dkH buffering, and is
super soft too (1 dgH). Because of the natural chemistry of my water,
I have to add product to keep it fish-safe. The weapon of choice for me
is RO Right and a buffer, both from Kent. If I left it alone, and I did
when I first moved here, the pH would plummet to levels regular hobby
kits can't measure (5).

If I had stable 7.2 water, I would leave it alone. The KISS approach
makes for healthier and happier fish over the long run. The more you
tweak a system, the more places it has to go wrong. JMHO of course :-)

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
say to
not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
change the
natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH.
Change your
water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2
bits worth to compensate for inflation
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

Hi Lily - This is a bit off topic but I'm guessing with your references to
Kent and fancy test to measure the potentcy of ammonia you also have
aquariums. Just curious what you have and what your pets in there are?
Bill

"Lilly" wrote in message
oups.com...
I would be thrilled if the water out of my tap stayed stable at any
reasonable pH. The water here has less than 1 dkH buffering, and is
super soft too (1 dgH). Because of the natural chemistry of my water,
I have to add product to keep it fish-safe. The weapon of choice for me
is RO Right and a buffer, both from Kent. If I left it alone, and I did
when I first moved here, the pH would plummet to levels regular hobby
kits can't measure (5).

If I had stable 7.2 water, I would leave it alone. The KISS approach
makes for healthier and happier fish over the long run. The more you
tweak a system, the more places it has to go wrong. JMHO of course :-)

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
say to
not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
change the
natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH.
Change your
water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2
bits worth to compensate for inflation
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

I have several tanks, 2G, 5G and a 40G with tropicals and the 75 with 3
goldfish. Used to be that I had a whole room with roughly 35 tanks
dedicated to all sorts of tropicals and goldfish. After a few years of
endless upkeep, rearing fry, going through insane amounts of baby brine
shrimp and dry goods, I realized that I was doing more maintenance than
anything approaching fun. I trimmed it down to what I have now.

Nothing fancy here for kits, just basic hobby kits, mostly the Tetra
brand. The numbers I gave in an earlier post are just calculated from a
one reagent Tetra ammonia kit, the conversion factor is printed on the
back. I'm not nearly geeky enough to mess with the pH pens/probes and
the like. Now, if it's computer related items, call me a geek because I
qualify with all the computers and peripherals that surround my work
area. ;-)

Years ago somebody turned me on to Kent products. I like them, they
work well and consistently. That's about as much as anybody can ask
for.

Lilly

humBill wrote:
Hi Lily - This is a bit off topic but I'm guessing with your
references to
Kent and fancy test to measure the potentcy of ammonia you also have
aquariums. Just curious what you have and what your pets in there
are?
Bill

I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
good.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I'd use more Ammolock and less water changes of such high percentages. I'm
wondering if your Ammolock is good enough. Does this stuff have an
expiration date? I prefer the dry forms of this chemical. ~ jan

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:35:28 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

Thats my plan. I just did a 88 % water change. The pH is 7.2 right out
of
the well but the ammonia is still (brought down to) .50 ppm. Still NO
NITRITE!!!!!!! Fish are swimming fine, nibbling at my fingers, but no
notice on bacterial change!? In two days...if ammonia increases I HAVE to
add AMMOLOCK.

Rich
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
. com...
Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will
say
to not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to
change
the natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I
also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change
your water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call
it 2 bits worth to compensate for inflation
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If
I
try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the
pH
is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
that better?

Rich


"Lilly" wrote in message
ups.com...
If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill









~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:41 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
good.

Rich

I got mine from Shari's Petal & Ponds - ChorAM-X the 5 lb. pail:
http://tech-geeks.org/tiny.php?url=3450 when you need to replenish.

Now, forgive my memory... but what was (or is) the problem you're having?

~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

My problem is as follows:

Moved 4 8" koi from 55 gal tank to a 160 gal. in cellar pool for winter
keeping while outside pond is being built.

Koi were in 55 gal. tank for two months with old aquarium setup-pH-6.5-7.0,
ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-40-80 ppm. Fish were doing fine.

Within days of placing fish in 160 gal. pool ammonia rose to 1.0,
pH-constant 7.2 from well water, NO nitrite, NO-nitrate visible.

After three days I changed the pool water (88%). Immediately ammonia
reading was .25 after water change. Two days later ammonia reading climbed
to 1.0...another 88% water change.

After posting on rec.ponds I received various comments/ideas. One of them
was to use AMMOLOCK because it does not change the ammonia, only "locks" it.
I thought that this would still allow the bacteria in my drip filter to
grow. Well......its been possibly 6 weeks already and all I have in my
water is AMMONIA.
Any ideas????

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:40:41 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

I was looking for some of the dry stuff but could not find it. Date is
good.

Rich

I got mine from Shari's Petal & Ponds - ChorAM-X the 5 lb. pail:
http://tech-geeks.org/tiny.php?url=3450 when you need to replenish.

Now, forgive my memory... but what was (or is) the problem you're having?

~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:39:26 -0500, "Richard Holub" wrote:

My problem is as follows:

Moved 4 8" koi from 55 gal tank to a 160 gal. in cellar pool for winter
keeping while outside pond is being built.

Koi were in 55 gal. tank for two months with old aquarium setup-pH-6.5-7.0,
ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-40-80 ppm. Fish were doing fine.

Within days of placing fish in 160 gal. pool ammonia rose to 1.0,
pH-constant 7.2 from well water, NO nitrite, NO-nitrate visible.

What did you do with the 55 gallon filter? Any way you could rinse some
bio-bugs off it into the pool? Assuming you kept it going with different
fish?

After three days I changed the pool water (88%). Immediately ammonia
reading was .25 after water change. Two days later ammonia reading climbed
to 1.0...another 88% water change.

After posting on rec.ponds I received various comments/ideas. One of them
was to use AMMOLOCK because it does not change the ammonia, only "locks" it.
I thought that this would still allow the bacteria in my drip filter to
grow. Well......its been possibly 6 weeks already and all I have in my
water is AMMONIA.
Any ideas???? Rich

I don't have any ideas of why this is, but I do know that you're better off
doing smaller water changes. What does confuse me is, if you're using
Ammolock and it truely is converting (detoxing) the ammonia, and you're
using a salicylate based test kit, you should have no reading of ammonia on
the kit, soon after adding the ammolock. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

OK...I was informed in one of the above postings (I think) or perhapps it is
in the instructions of AMMOLOCK that if you use AMMOLOCK it only locks the
ammonia and the readings will still show ammonia presence. I think the
instructions show that when all ammonia is gone, then the readings will be
zero.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:39:26 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

My problem is as follows:

Moved 4 8" koi from 55 gal tank to a 160 gal. in cellar pool for winter
keeping while outside pond is being built.

Koi were in 55 gal. tank for two months with old aquarium
setup-pH-6.5-7.0,
ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-40-80 ppm. Fish were doing fine.

Within days of placing fish in 160 gal. pool ammonia rose to 1.0,
pH-constant 7.2 from well water, NO nitrite, NO-nitrate visible.

What did you do with the 55 gallon filter? Any way you could rinse some
bio-bugs off it into the pool? Assuming you kept it going with different
fish?

After three days I changed the pool water (88%). Immediately ammonia
reading was .25 after water change. Two days later ammonia reading
climbed
to 1.0...another 88% water change.

After posting on rec.ponds I received various comments/ideas. One of them
was to use AMMOLOCK because it does not change the ammonia, only "locks"
it.
I thought that this would still allow the bacteria in my drip filter to
grow. Well......its been possibly 6 weeks already and all I have in my
water is AMMONIA.
Any ideas???? Rich

I don't have any ideas of why this is, but I do know that you're better
off
doing smaller water changes. What does confuse me is, if you're using
Ammolock and it truely is converting (detoxing) the ammonia, and you're
using a salicylate based test kit, you should have no reading of ammonia
on
the kit, soon after adding the ammolock. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

OK...I was informed in one of the above postings (I think) or perhapps it is
in the instructions of AMMOLOCK that if you use AMMOLOCK it only locks the
ammonia and the readings will still show ammonia presence. I think the
instructions show that when all ammonia is gone, then the readings will be
zero.

Rich

With a one bottle test kit, it will show ammonia, with a salicylate based
test kit (two bottles) detoxed ammonia won't show. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

OK...if that's the case then I am still reading a high concentration of
ammonia...I am using the 2 bottle test.

Also...I went to a aquarium shop near Boston and one of the guys (who
appeared to be up on this thing) told me to use CYCLE to increase the
nitrite. He also said not to do ANY MORE water changes until nitrites go
up. He said that I should still use AMMOLOCK if I wish. That is what I am
doing now. I have been testing the water every day for the past 4 weeks and
I will continue to do so untill it all balances out.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
OK...I was informed in one of the above postings (I think) or perhapps it
is
in the instructions of AMMOLOCK that if you use AMMOLOCK it only locks
the
ammonia and the readings will still show ammonia presence. I think the
instructions show that when all ammonia is gone, then the readings will be
zero.

Rich

With a one bottle test kit, it will show ammonia, with a salicylate based
test kit (two bottles) detoxed ammonia won't show. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

OK...if that's the case then I am still reading a high concentration of
ammonia...I am using the 2 bottle test.

Also...I went to a aquarium shop near Boston and one of the guys (who
appeared to be up on this thing) told me to use CYCLE to increase the
nitrite. He also said not to do ANY MORE water changes until nitrites go
up. He said that I should still use AMMOLOCK if I wish. That is what I am
doing now. I have been testing the water every day for the past 4 weeks and
I will continue to do so untill it all balances out. Rich

Well I agree with the no more water changes... for 7 days and a small one
10-20% after that and using ammolock daily, IF the ammolock is working. Did
you take a water sample to the shop? What did their tests say? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Richard Holub wrote:
OK...if that's the case then I am still reading a high concentration of
ammonia...I am using the 2 bottle test.

Also...I went to a aquarium shop near Boston and one of the guys (who
appeared to be up on this thing) told me to use CYCLE to increase the
nitrite. He also said not to do ANY MORE water changes until nitrites go
up. He said that I should still use AMMOLOCK if I wish. That is what I am
doing now. I have been testing the water every day for the past 4 weeks and
I will continue to do so untill it all balances out.

First off, how old is that test kit? The reagents do go bad with time, so
it might be worthwhile to pick up another one. If you do, you might try to
find the Seachem ammonia test kits. They supposedly use a different method
to measure only the free ammonia, which would be any ammonia unaffected by
the Ammolock. I've personally not tried their kits, but in my larger tanks
I use their ammonia alert device which is supposed to work on similar
principles, just less precise. It does work as when I had a little tank
disaster while out of town at a conference, when I got home it was
accurately showing the 6ppm+ ammonia spike that happened as a result of
all the dead fish.

As for adding bacteria, Cycle is marginally effective. The really good one
I keep hearing about is the Marineland product Bio-Spira. It's rather hard
to obtain I hear though due to demand far exceeding supply. I know they
were ramping up production, just not sure if the supply issue has been
fully resolved yet. If you can find it, it is good though from all I've
read. Another alternative is to find either a pond or aquarium keeper who
can help you seed the filter with established media.

Get rid of all the chemicals. Replace your well water with my green water and
all problems will be gone, except for the green part...

Richard Holub wrote:

How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich