How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the ammonia?
This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the ammonia?
This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the
tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich
=========================
Your pond is very overcrowded. Koi, like goldfish produce a lot of waste.
You will need to build a much bigger pond and very soon if you want to keep
koi. You are doing massive daily water changes aren't you? If not the
ammonia will eventually kill all your fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the
tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich
=========================
Your pond is very overcrowded. Koi, like goldfish produce a lot of waste.
You will need to build a much bigger pond and very soon if you want to keep
koi. You are doing massive daily water changes aren't you? If not the
ammonia will eventually kill all your fish.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the ammonia?
This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan

Agreed, something should be happening with the nitrifying bacteria by 4
weeks. I wonder though, exactly how much ammonia are you reading? People
who have tried fishless cycling in aquariums have found that high levels
of ammonia seem to prolong or even stall the growth of the bacterial
colonies. Usually this happens over 5ppm ammonia from what I've read of
the accounts, but that's also at aquarium temperatures. Might happen at a
lower level at lower temperatures.

It would also be worthwhile to verify that your test kits are still fresh
(most start giving bad readings after several years) by taking a sample of
water to an LFS to test. Nitrite kits I've found to be somewhat more
sensitive to age than ammonia kits. I have a several year master test kit
where the ammonia reagent is still fine, but the nitrite reagent stopped
giving reliable readings a year ago.

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near 0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill

If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill

Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
Water change every week.


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:16:10 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to nitrite/nitrate in
a
new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for approximately 4 weeks
and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time that the
tests
show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

Usually a drip system gets going faster than others, and I would expect by
4 weeks you would be seeing improvements. How are you managing the
ammonia?
This could be the problem. What is the pH? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I try
to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH is on
the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is that
better?

Rich


"Lilly" wrote in message
ups.com...
If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill

Over a pH of 7.0, ammonium (the not so toxic form) converts to ammonia.
Other influences that make ammonia more toxic are temperature and pH.
You also get better bacteria growth at higher pH's. At pH's lower than
7.0, ammonia is converted to ammonium but the lower the pH goes the
less active the bacteria become.

So, your pH of 7.2 means there is more toxic ammonia than non-toxic
ammonium. Your test kit probably has some way to calculate the real
amount of ammonia versus ammonium. I know my Tetra kit does, and it's
temperature and pH dependent.

For sake of argument we'll use a total reading of 3.0 (not an
unreasonable number in cycling tanks), your pH of 7.2, and an assumed
temperature of 72F (because that's as low as my Tetra chart goes ;-).
The factor that applies in this case is .0072. Thus, the reading of 3,
times the factor of .0072, gives you a calculated ammonia reading of
0.0216. While any ammonia is bad, there is a certain threshold level
that is really bad. On the back of my kit it says "Calculated levels
below 0.05ppm are safe." If you were to change the pH to 6.6 with the
same temperature and ammonia reading parameters, the calculated level
is 0.003, much less ammonia and more ammonium. Does this make it
somewhat clearer?

Also, be careful with those ammonia locking concoctions. I know for a
fact that the old AmQuel if you use it willy-nilly will drop the pH
like a rock down to nearly untestable levels.

Lilly

One other thing. I should have illustrated the higher pH for you. A
total reading of 3, at a temp of 72F uses a factor of 0.0179 at a pH of
7.6. That would give you a reading of 0.0537, which is not "safe". So
you can see that fairly subtle changes in this relationship can nearly
eliminate most of the toxic form, or make it higher.

Like I said, any ammonia is bad. I'll bet that the fish don't really
care about the difference betwee 0.04 and 0.05, they just know it's
nasty. ;-)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500, "Richard Holub" wrote:

Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
Water change every week.

Are you using a 2 bottle test kit for ammonia or a 1 bottle kit? If 1
bottle that's your problem. It reads both toxic and treated ammonia.
Whereas the 2 bottle test won't do that. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

No...just using the two bottle. I didn't even know that there was a one
bottle test.

Rich
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:00:21 -0500, "Richard Holub"
wrote:

Ammonia being checked by adding AMMOLOCK every two days. Fish are better.
Water change every week.

Are you using a 2 bottle test kit for ammonia or a 1 bottle kit? If 1
bottle that's your problem. It reads both toxic and treated ammonia.
Whereas the 2 bottle test won't do that. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Most people would love to have a stable 7.2 pH and the majority? will say to
not put in any additives you dont have too. I would not try to change the
natural pH if you alkalinity is good enough to hold it stable. I also
believe most pond fish prefer at least a slightly alkaline pH. Change your
water, not your natural chemistry. Dats my 2 cents worth, well call it 2
bits worth to compensate for inflation
Have Fun!!
Bill Brister

"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
OK, now I am totaly confused. My pH is 7.2 right out of the well. If I
try to lower the pH...will that increase the bacterial grouth. If the pH
is on the acidic side...ammonia starts converting to ammonium?...So is
that better?

Rich


"Lilly" wrote in message
ups.com...
If the pH is low, that can impede growth of bacteria. Somewhere around
a pH of 5 is when the benefical bacteria really start to shut down. As
an aside, I have been told by people who have travelled to some of the
more acidic waters of the Amazon that bacterial activity is nearly
nill. Hence the reason wild Discus seem to have "adjustment" issues,
they're just not used to bacteria.

Also, if the pH is in the acidic range, the ammonia starts converting
to ammonium, which isn't a problem for fish. Doing large water changes
with alkaline water could alter that balance, and should be approached
carefully. A sudden influx of alkaline water will cause sudden rise in
pH, and possibly a conversion of ammonium to ammonia if you reach the
7.0 threshold.

Lilly

Newbie Bill wrote:
"Richard Holub" wrote in message
...
How long does it take for ammonia to be broken down to
nitrite/nitrate in
a new filter? I have had my new drip filter going for
approximately 4
weeks and so far my tests only read ammonia. Isin't it about time
that
the tests show some nitrite buil-up?

160 gal. rubber lined pond, 72 deg. F, four 8" koi...

Rich

At aquarium temps my rule of thumb has been a week to 10 days to
bring bring
ammonia to 0 and nitrites growing. Double that time again to reduce
nitrites to 0. At cooler temps the nitrite reducing bacteria will
probably
grow a little slower. Ammonia reducing bacteria shouldnt be impeded
as
much, certainly not a month.

Sorry, but I don't have a solution. At a minimum you should be doing
large
water changes to keep your ammonia down. However, while I don't know
the
specifics, I have also heard of instances of certain new water
conditioners
binding the ammonia to the point that it nitrite bacterial growth is
very
slow. If this option is available I would see about transfering your
pets
to another pond, possibly reintroducing 1 when the ammonia gets near
0. I
dont adhere as closely to 'the groups' 1000 +100 rule for koi, but I
would
definitely agree that 4 8" koi is going to be way too much. My
brother in
law had a similar situation and I didnt pond at the time. He
complained
they kept jumping out. This was to escape the toxic waters. He
still has
one solitary koi - but it is not very happy. I hate to be a nay
sayer but a
few comets or shubunkin might be a better fit. If your pond is that
warm in
the winter and doesnt get very hot in the summer even some fancy
goldfish
might be nice.
Good Luck!
Bill