I don't understand the stray voltage idea, where would it come from. A
voltage from the pum would short the fuse and affect all the fish surely.
The fish was ok for a couple of days before twirling again.

????????


"Crashj" wrote in message
news
On or about Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:55:55 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
wrote something like:

Ignore the salt advice and go more along the lines of what Jan has posted.
I believe that device is generically called a grounding wand/probe,

Better yet, if you have friends
in the electrician field, see if one will come over and check the pond for
stray voltage. Then you can see if this is the problem or not.
Adding a true ground at the outlet for the pond equipment is an
excellent idea, I will do that come spring. There is no need to get
fancy about it with Ti rods and all, a common copper bar about 2 feet
into the ground will do fine. Your local Home Box store will fix you
up with just what you need.
--
Crashj

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:04:09 -0000, "Oxymel of Squill" wrote:

I don't understand the stray voltage idea, where would it come from. A
voltage from the pump would short the fuse and affect all the fish surely.

Apparently not. This is what the website says about Rid-Volt” Titanium
Grounding Probe:

**Made of pure titanium, this specially designed probe removes "stray
voltage" generated by pumps, heaters, lights and other electrical devices.
A worthwhile safety device for live seafood tanks, aquariums, hatcheries,
garden ponds, etc. Noncorrosive titanium probe has 10' wire lead. Simply
immerse probe in water and either plug into wall receptacle or attach to
grounding lug. Instructions included. **

The fish was ok for a couple of days before twirling again.

Were the water parameters the same in the bucket as the pond? What was
different? Or did the smaller space make it more difficult to continue
this behavior (how big was said bucket? how big is fish?). ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Yabbadoo" wrote in message
...
Simplest way of checking without a meter - Switch off ALL electrical
devices
in the pond for an hour. If your fish is still distressed, it ain't the
electrics! If it IS the electrics, do NOT add more salt to the pond till
you've got them fixed. Increasing the salt level will increase electrical
conductivity and put more fish at risk. Depriving the pond of (elecrical)
services for an hour will not cause any problem.
SNIP

IMHO...stop all salt. Why toss in a treatment for an unknown problem?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Come post in our forums...PLEASE!!!
http://www.iheartmypond.com/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Were the water parameters the same in the bucket as the pond? What was
different? Or did the smaller space make it more difficult to continue
this behavior (how big was said bucket? how big is fish?). ~ jan

I used pond water and the bucket stands nearby so the temperature will be
close.
Poor fish is obviously constricted in small space, but has a couple of
lengths perhaps. In the pond he was shooting about and twirling wildly, in
the salt he complained a lot and ended up upside down and very dead looking.
After the salt, in new pondwater he stablised and flapped around happily
just like a healthy fish in too small a sspace. He was ok in the pond for a
couple of days, then started twirling again. The other fish aren't affected
at all, so I don't think it's a pond problem, and I'm not putting salt in
the pond.

I'm going to keep him in the bucket for a longer convalescence this time,
but if he twirls again in the pond I think I'll have to consider it
terminal.

Not putting salt in the pond is a smart decision.......

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:57:43 -0000, "Oxymel of Squill"
wrote:

===
===
=== Were the water parameters the same in the bucket as the pond? What was
=== different? Or did the smaller space make it more difficult to continue
=== this behavior (how big was said bucket? how big is fish?). ~ jan
===
===I used pond water and the bucket stands nearby so the temperature will be
===close.
===Poor fish is obviously constricted in small space, but has a couple of
===lengths perhaps. In the pond he was shooting about and twirling wildly, in
===the salt he complained a lot and ended up upside down and very dead looking.
===After the salt, in new pondwater he stablised and flapped around happily
===just like a healthy fish in too small a sspace. He was ok in the pond for a
===couple of days, then started twirling again. The other fish aren't affected
===at all, so I don't think it's a pond problem, and I'm not putting salt in
===the pond.
===
===I'm going to keep him in the bucket for a longer convalescence this time,
===but if he twirls again in the pond I think I'll have to consider it
===terminal.
===


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

A short would make the GFCI or breaker or fuse "FLIP" using the
words of one wanna be electrician.....You do not have a short, you
have a potential path to another ground source and the reason it is
not kicking off the circuit is there is sufficienct resistence to
absorb this stray current flow (If that is what is happening) by the
water in your pond and the ground around it. Its easy to find stray
voltage if there is any present with a VOM but I sort of doubt thats
your problem.......Normally stray voltage in water makes a fish arch
up, not necessarily twirl.......

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:04:09 -0000, "Oxymel of Squill"
wrote:

===I don't understand the stray voltage idea, where would it come from. A
===voltage from the pum would short the fuse and affect all the fish surely.
===The fish was ok for a couple of days before twirling again.
===
===????????
===
===
==="Crashj" wrote in message
===news8dh11tpou9f23c0jcbfc2t9njegi690es@4ax. com...
=== On or about Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:55:55 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
=== wrote something like:
===
===Ignore the salt advice and go more along the lines of what Jan has posted.
===I believe that device is generically called a grounding wand/probe,
===
=== Better yet, if you have friends
===in the electrician field, see if one will come over and check the pond for
===stray voltage. Then you can see if this is the problem or not.
=== Adding a true ground at the outlet for the pond equipment is an
=== excellent idea, I will do that come spring. There is no need to get
=== fancy about it with Ti rods and all, a common copper bar about 2 feet
=== into the ground will do fine. Your local Home Box store will fix you
=== up with just what you need.
=== --
=== Crashj
===


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

And short of my remark to add slat to increase electrolyte and
increase a path for curent fdlow my post was dead on.......Read
between the lines JJ. I bet you find it hard to resist all those super
duper gadgets sold on TV that do miracles.......ANd once again
breakers etc do not FLIP, they TRIP............and a proper working
GFCI device will TRIP with minimal current flow to the wrong
places.......and they are a device that does wear out and needs to
be kept serviceable.................



..On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:04:05 -0400, Derek Broughton
wrote:

===~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
===
=== Roy, shows he doesn't know everything, typed:
===
=== Unnecessary derogatory comments snipped
===More salt is in order....BGotta build up the electrolytes sp a better
===cpnductive path can be had and then possibly your GFCI (if you have
===one) will "TRIP" if its a common type GFCI device if not and its an
===oddball then it will FLIP.
===
=== Electrical devices will bleed off minute amounts of charge that won't flip
=== a GFCI. At least that is what this product takes care of:
===
=== Rid-Volt” Titanium Grounding Probe www.aquaticeco.com Part # TG10
===
===I confess, I didn't go to the site to check it out, but I very much doubt
===it's worth the money.
===
===Electrical devices can't "bleed off minute amounts of charge" (at least to
===the point of being hazardous) without tripping a GFI. What happens is that
===there is no path "to ground" in a typical rubber- or plastic-lined pond.
===So a pump might have a ground fault, but not trip a GFI until it gets a
===clear path to ground (e.g., you). That still shouldn't be a real problem
===as the GFI should trip before you're harmed.
===
===The grounding probe just ensures that the GFI trips at the time the fault
===really occurs. However, a copper wire (in the pond) fastened to a length
===of rebar (in the ground outside the pond) should do the job as well as a
===Titanium grounding probe. Concrete or clay ponds shouldn't ever be a
===problem.


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:59:52 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

**Made of pure titanium, this specially designed probe removes "stray
voltage" generated by pumps, heaters, lights and other electrical devices.
A worthwhile safety device for live seafood tanks, aquariums, hatcheries,
garden ponds, etc. Noncorrosive titanium probe has 10' wire lead. Simply
immerse probe in water and either plug into wall receptacle or attach to
grounding lug. Instructions included. **

That's interesting. Why not just use a GFI? That stops the circuit
from operating if it loses more than 400milliamps. I've never tried
it, but understand you don't even feel it when that amount of voltage
is contacted.

On the other hand if you are losing voltage into the water and have a
nice ground rod in the water completing the circuit back to the
circuit breaker box you may have about the same set up as a metal
plating tank. Adding salt wouldn't be a good thing...

Regards,

Hal

"Oxymel of Squill" wrote in message
...
I don't understand the stray voltage idea, where would it come from. A
voltage from the pum would short the fuse and affect all the fish surely.
The fish was ok for a couple of days before twirling again.
=============================
I don't know much about stray voltage either. I did have a few twirlers at
the same my fish were having an ulcer problem. Since we use that bacterial
product that prevents the ulcers and netted our ponds - no twirlers. The
nets are also beneficial for disease prevention since they keep other
critters out of the ponds that may be carrying diseases from pond to pond.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Where the hell is Easy Street?"
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:33:03 -0500, Hal wrote:

That's interesting. Why not just use a GFI? That stops the circuit
from operating if it loses more than 400milliamps. I've never tried
it, but understand you don't even feel it when that amount of voltage
is contacted.

When I was first shown this device I felt "snake oil" but I don't know, I'm
not an electrician. I don't use one on my ponds, but the OP had a problem
where the fish got better out of the pond, yet still in the same water, so
the water quality wasn't an issue. Why I suggested it. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:33:03 -0500, Hal wrote:

That's interesting. Why not just use a GFI? That stops the circuit
from operating if it loses more than 400milliamps. I've never tried
it, but understand you don't even feel it when that amount of voltage
is contacted.

When I was first shown this device I felt "snake oil" but I don't know, I'm
not an electrician. I don't use one on my ponds, but the OP had a problem
where the fish got better out of the pond, yet still in the same water, so
the water quality wasn't an issue. Why I suggested it. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:46:00 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:33:03 -0500, Hal wrote:

That's interesting. Why not just use a GFI? That stops the circuit
from operating if it loses more than 400milliamps. I've never tried
it, but understand you don't even feel it when that amount of voltage
is contacted.

They should switch at a lot less than that. Looking at some UK products
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Elec...es/d190/sd2659
(about halfway down) they switch at either 30ua or 30ma and in something
like 40ms.

When I was first shown this device I felt "snake oil" but I don't know, I'm
not an electrician. I don't use one on my ponds, but the OP had a problem
where the fish got better out of the pond, yet still in the same water, so
the water quality wasn't an issue. Why I suggested it. ~ jan

It's not the voltage at the fish that harms it but the voltage gradient
across it. In a pond with no earth the voltage would go to whatever your
mains is but it would be the same all over so there wouldn't be a current
passing through the fish. With an earth spike the voltage would drop from
mains to 0 between the pump (or whatever was leaking voltage) to the earth
spike. If you have a trip the spike would probably cause the trip to fire
sooner but if you don't have a trip I would expect the spike to cause more
harm to the fish. There is a 33,000volt power line going across the field
next to me and the birds happily sit on it without getting fried even
though they are at 33,000 volts but there isn't any current flow.

I think the spike is just 'marketing hype' but one might just help a trip
to work if there is no other path to ground. Usually there is either, via
an earth wire in the pump or even through a plant leaf that goes between
the pond and the outside.

Going slightly off topic the BS kitemark is misused quite a lot in this
context. BS1363 (I think it's that one but it's a while since I dealt
with them) used to be used by the marketing people to say how good their
computer spike suppressor was but all it means is that the insulation will
withstand 2,000 volts before electrocuting you :-)

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk