well I tried the salt treatment you all suggested, and this morning find
last night's upside-down dead fish is splashing around complaining about
being in a tiny bucket :-))))) so thanks everyone

how soon should I put him back in the pond? anything else needs to be done?

thanks again

jon

It wouldn't hurt to add salt to the pond because you must have a lack
of oxygen in the water. At the very least put an airstone with
multipule lines in the pond before you put the fish back in because it
will probably happen again. Good luck.

It wouldn't hurt to add salt to the pond because you must have a lack
of oxygen in the water. At the very least put an airstone with
multipule lines in the pond before you put the fish back in because it
will probably happen again. Good luck.

wrote:
It wouldn't hurt to add salt to the pond because you must have a lack
of oxygen in the water. At the very least put an airstone with
multipule lines in the pond before you put the fish back in because it
will probably happen again. Good luck.

I think you are confusing two different forms of respiratory distress and
combining them into one condition. Non-disease causes of breathing
problems in fish are usually low oxygenation and nitrite poisoning. The
air stones will help with oxygenation, but salt is for nitrite poisoning.
Salt in and of itself will not add more oxygen to the water. What it does
do is help prevent nitrites from being absorbed over the gills. This
prevents nitrite poisoning. Nitrite poisoning converts hemoglobin into a
form that cannot carry oxygen, thus why the symptoms are similar to low
oxygenation, but the root causes and treatments are different.

wrote:
It wouldn't hurt to add salt to the pond because you must have a lack
of oxygen in the water. At the very least put an airstone with
multipule lines in the pond before you put the fish back in because it
will probably happen again. Good luck.

I think you are confusing two different forms of respiratory distress and
combining them into one condition. Non-disease causes of breathing
problems in fish are usually low oxygenation and nitrite poisoning. The
air stones will help with oxygenation, but salt is for nitrite poisoning.
Salt in and of itself will not add more oxygen to the water. What it does
do is help prevent nitrites from being absorbed over the gills. This
prevents nitrite poisoning. Nitrite poisoning converts hemoglobin into a
form that cannot carry oxygen, thus why the symptoms are similar to low
oxygenation, but the root causes and treatments are different.

I put the little chap back in the pond and he was fine for a couple of days,
but now he started twirling again. All the others are ok
I've taken him out and given more salt, but is this likely to be a swim
bladder problem rather than a general pond problem?
Dunnow what to do
Any thoughts?

cheers




"Oxymel of Squill" wrote in message
...
well I tried the salt treatment you all suggested, and this morning find
last night's upside-down dead fish is splashing around complaining about
being in a tiny bucket :-))))) so thanks everyone

how soon should I put him back in the pond? anything else needs to be
done?

thanks again

jon

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:33:44 -0000, "Oxymel of Squill" wrote:

I put the little chap back in the pond and he was fine for a couple of days,
but now he started twirling again. All the others are ok
I've taken him out and given more salt, but is this likely to be a swim
bladder problem rather than a general pond problem?
Dunnow what to do
Any thoughts?

If he got better, and then returned to this behavior after going back into
the pond, I'm wondering if you might have a small electrical current going
on? Small enough that doesn't flip the GFI (assuming you're using one) and
only this fish is sensitive enough to it, over the others? Is this
possible? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

More salt is in order....BGotta build up the electrolytes sp a better
cpnductive path can be had and then possibly your GFCI (if you have
one) will "TRIP" if its a common type GFCI device if not and its an
oddball like Jan then it will FLIP.

Ok thats my last post until I get back from the Casino's.........so
please Jan hold down on your ubiquious replies with 2nd hand
terminology, it confuses these newbies all to hell......



On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:53:30 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

===On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:33:44 -0000, "Oxymel of Squill" wrote:
===
===I put the little chap back in the pond and he was fine for a couple of days,
===but now he started twirling again. All the others are ok
===I've taken him out and given more salt, but is this likely to be a swim
===bladder problem rather than a general pond problem?
===Dunnow what to do
===Any thoughts?
===
===If he got better, and then returned to this behavior after going back into
===the pond, I'm wondering if you might have a small electrical current going
===on? Small enough that doesn't flip the GFI (assuming you're using one) and
===only this fish is sensitive enough to it, over the others? Is this
===possible? ~ jan
===
=== ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

Roy, shows he doesn't know everything, typed:

Unnecessary derogatory comments snipped
More salt is in order....BGotta build up the electrolytes sp a better
cpnductive path can be had and then possibly your GFCI (if you have
one) will "TRIP" if its a common type GFCI device if not and its an
oddball then it will FLIP.

Electrical devices will bleed off minute amounts of charge that won't flip
a GFCI. At least that is what this product takes care of:

Rid-Volt” Titanium Grounding Probe www.aquaticeco.com Part # TG10

****Description: Made of pure titanium, this specially designed probe
removes "stray voltage" generated by pumps, heaters, lights and other
electrical devices. A worthwhile safety device for live seafood tanks,
aquariums, hatcheries, garden ponds, etc. Noncorrosive titanium probe has
10' wire lead. Simply immerse probe in water and either plug into wall
receptacle or attach to grounding lug. Instructions included. End****

Most fish aren't bothered, but the ones that are, can be stressed and thus
act unusual (for Roy, oddball). Allowing fish to stay in this situation
most likely will lead to its demise over time, imho. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

"Bubba 's brother Roy" wrote in message
...
REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
==================================
Nonsense! Newbies should ask questions HERE where they get a variety of
replies.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"When I feed the poor, they call me a saint; when I ask
why they are poor, they call me a communist. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Roy, shows he doesn't know everything, typed:

Unnecessary derogatory comments snipped
More salt is in order....BGotta build up the electrolytes sp a better
cpnductive path can be had and then possibly your GFCI (if you have
one) will "TRIP" if its a common type GFCI device if not and its an
oddball then it will FLIP.

Electrical devices will bleed off minute amounts of charge that won't flip
a GFCI. At least that is what this product takes care of:

Rid-Volt Titanium Grounding Probe www.aquaticeco.com Part # TG10

****Description: Made of pure titanium, this specially designed probe
removes "stray voltage" generated by pumps, heaters, lights and other
electrical devices. A worthwhile safety device for live seafood tanks,
aquariums, hatcheries, garden ponds, etc. Noncorrosive titanium probe has
10' wire lead. Simply immerse probe in water and either plug into wall
receptacle or attach to grounding lug. Instructions included. End****

Most fish aren't bothered, but the ones that are, can be stressed and thus
act unusual (for Roy, oddball). Allowing fish to stay in this situation
most likely will lead to its demise over time, imho. ~ jan

Ignore the salt advice and go more along the lines of what Jan has posted.
I believe that device is generically called a grounding wand/probe, so you
will probably find more options than that brand. Personally, I would hire
an electrician who can measure for stray voltage and check that all the
wiring to the pond is safe and up to spec. Better yet, if you have friends
in the electrician field, see if one will come over and check the pond for
stray voltage. Then you can see if this is the problem or not.

Simplest way of checking without a meter - Switch off ALL electrical devices
in the pond for an hour. If your fish is still distressed, it ain't the
electrics! If it IS the electrics, do NOT add more salt to the pond till
you've got them fixed. Increasing the salt level will increase electrical
conductivity and put more fish at risk. Depriving the pond of (elecrical)
services for an hour will not cause any problem.

Sincerely, Len.


"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Roy, shows he doesn't know everything, typed:

Unnecessary derogatory comments snipped
More salt is in order....BGotta build up the electrolytes sp a better
cpnductive path can be had and then possibly your GFCI (if you have
one) will "TRIP" if its a common type GFCI device if not and its an
oddball then it will FLIP.

Electrical devices will bleed off minute amounts of charge that won't
flip
a GFCI. At least that is what this product takes care of:

Rid-Volt Titanium Grounding Probe www.aquaticeco.com Part # TG10

****Description: Made of pure titanium, this specially designed probe
removes "stray voltage" generated by pumps, heaters, lights and other
electrical devices. A worthwhile safety device for live seafood tanks,
aquariums, hatcheries, garden ponds, etc. Noncorrosive titanium probe has
10' wire lead. Simply immerse probe in water and either plug into wall
receptacle or attach to grounding lug. Instructions included. End****

Most fish aren't bothered, but the ones that are, can be stressed and
thus
act unusual (for Roy, oddball). Allowing fish to stay in this situation
most likely will lead to its demise over time, imho. ~ jan

Ignore the salt advice and go more along the lines of what Jan has posted.
I believe that device is generically called a grounding wand/probe, so you
will probably find more options than that brand. Personally, I would hire
an electrician who can measure for stray voltage and check that all the
wiring to the pond is safe and up to spec. Better yet, if you have friends
in the electrician field, see if one will come over and check the pond for
stray voltage. Then you can see if this is the problem or not.

On or about Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:55:55 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
wrote something like:

Ignore the salt advice and go more along the lines of what Jan has posted.
I believe that device is generically called a grounding wand/probe,

Better yet, if you have friends
in the electrician field, see if one will come over and check the pond for
stray voltage. Then you can see if this is the problem or not.
Adding a true ground at the outlet for the pond equipment is an
excellent idea, I will do that come spring. There is no need to get
fancy about it with Ti rods and all, a common copper bar about 2 feet
into the ground will do fine. Your local Home Box store will fix you
up with just what you need.
--
Crashj

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Roy, shows he doesn't know everything, typed:

Unnecessary derogatory comments snipped
More salt is in order....BGotta build up the electrolytes sp a better
cpnductive path can be had and then possibly your GFCI (if you have
one) will "TRIP" if its a common type GFCI device if not and its an
oddball then it will FLIP.

Electrical devices will bleed off minute amounts of charge that won't flip
a GFCI. At least that is what this product takes care of:

Rid-Volt” Titanium Grounding Probe www.aquaticeco.com Part # TG10

I confess, I didn't go to the site to check it out, but I very much doubt
it's worth the money.

Electrical devices can't "bleed off minute amounts of charge" (at least to
the point of being hazardous) without tripping a GFI. What happens is that
there is no path "to ground" in a typical rubber- or plastic-lined pond.
So a pump might have a ground fault, but not trip a GFI until it gets a
clear path to ground (e.g., you). That still shouldn't be a real problem
as the GFI should trip before you're harmed.

The grounding probe just ensures that the GFI trips at the time the fault
really occurs. However, a copper wire (in the pond) fastened to a length
of rebar (in the ground outside the pond) should do the job as well as a
Titanium grounding probe. Concrete or clay ponds shouldn't ever be a
problem.
--
derek

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:07:18 GMT, Crashj wrote:

Adding a true ground at the outlet for the pond equipment is an
excellent idea, I will do that come spring. There is no need to get
fancy about it with Ti rods and all, a common copper bar about 2 feet
into the ground will do fine. Your local Home Box store will fix you
up with just what you need.

I know my fellow KHA, locally, who built an insulated outbuilding
specifically to quarantine his koi in, (holds two large tanks, about 600
gallons each) is grounded. His building, only 2 years old, was properly
built to electrical code, certified by the city and he still uses the Ti
rods (Rid-Volt” Titanium Grounding Probe) for good measure, overkill? Well
we're only talking $12 here.

I do like the idea of shutting off the power. Good idea. Question I have
is, how long did it take the fish to recover before? I'm wondering if it
would take more than an hour for it to recover and act "normal"? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~