Ok, well I seem to have my algae problem under control. Now I have
crystal clear water in at least one of my ponds! Yippie! Well, sort of
yippie! Despite the clear water, I cannot see my sarassus comet or
butterfly koi because they are hiding. Constatntly hiding. The first
day we brought the two fishes home, they were swimming to an fro
ravaging me hyacinth and generally quite entertaining. The next
morning, my wife and I sat outside for the better part of the early
morning hours just watching them swim around. Later that day they
seemed to settle down. They werent swimming around or moving much. I
thought , well, theyre just not very active this time of day. Well, its
been almost a week and they have barely moved at all in the past 6-7
days. They keep hiding out by flower pots and under whatever they can
find. They wont move at all. My sarassus has been in the same spot all
day long. They will move around if disturbed, quite quickly too- right
back to where they were hiding. They seem ok physically, they look ok
physically, best I can tell. They just will not eat AT ALL and they
just lay motionless on the bottom of the pond, hiding. I have tested my
water: 1200 gallon pond -No Ammonia, no nitrites nor nitrAtes, PH(after
a 10% water change) is ~ 7.5-8. GH is at 75ppm and KH is at 40ppm, low
i know. I have bought some baking soda to attempt to stabalize/raise
PH#. As far as I can tell, other than the PH and KH everything seems
fine. What could be causing this lethargy in my poor fish? Also, how
much baking soda should I add to raise the KH from 40 to say, 120? I
used a formula I found elsewhere on the forum [ (1200*80)/5000=19.2oz
of baking soda to raise it from 40 to 120. ]How much should I add at
one time? All of it or about 1/4 of what I need over a period of 4
days? Should my GH be tampered with? Should I ask another question? Is
wrestling fixed? If a tree falls in the woods....

"robv60" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, well I seem to have my algae problem under control. Now I have
crystal clear water in at least one of my ponds! Yippie! Well, sort of
yippie! Despite the clear water, I cannot see my sarassus comet or
butterfly koi because they are hiding. Constatntly hiding. The first
day we brought the two fishes home, they were swimming to an fro
ravaging me hyacinth and generally quite entertaining. The next
morning, my wife and I sat outside for the better part of the early
morning hours just watching them swim around. Later that day they
seemed to settle down. They werent swimming around or moving much. I
thought , well, theyre just not very active this time of day. Well, its
been almost a week and they have barely moved at all in the past 6-7
days. They keep hiding out by flower pots and under whatever they can
find. They wont move at all. My sarassus has been in the same spot all
day long. They will move around if disturbed, quite quickly too- right
back to where they were hiding. They seem ok physically, they look ok
physically, best I can tell. They just will not eat AT ALL and they
just lay motionless on the bottom of the pond, hiding.

## Could something have gotten into the pond to terrorize them? I had this
problem pretty often before we netted the ponds. Sometimes they'd hide for
days.... :-(

I have tested my
water: 1200 gallon pond -No Ammonia, no nitrites nor nitrAtes, PH(after
a 10% water change) is ~ 7.5-8. GH is at 75ppm and KH is at 40ppm, low
i know. I have bought some baking soda to attempt to stabalize/raise
PH#. As far as I can tell, other than the PH and KH everything seems
fine. What could be causing this lethargy in my poor fish? Also, how
much baking soda should I add to raise the KH from 40 to say, 120? I
used a formula I found elsewhere on the forum [ (1200*80)/5000=19.2oz
of baking soda to raise it from 40 to 120. ]How much should I add at
one time? All of it or about 1/4 of what I need over a period of 4
days? Should my GH be tampered with? Should I ask another question? Is
wrestling fixed? If a tree falls in the woods....

## What's wrong with a PH of 7.5? To keep your buffer up I would rather use
limestone, oyster shell (chicken grit),ground coral etc. as it's more
permanent and can be replaced as needed. It works slowly so there is no
danger in PH shocking the fish and constant adjustments.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

If the fish are hiding, as you describe, it is most likely a predator has
been seen by them and it takes a couple of weeks for them to get their
courage back up. It could also be that they are suffering from some form of
parasites, illness and are staying still to conserve energy for healing. I
would net the pond to keep the predators away, and watch the fish for a
couple of weeks. If the behavior changes, let us know.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"robv60" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, well I seem to have my algae problem under control. Now I have
crystal clear water in at least one of my ponds! Yippie! Well, sort of
yippie! Despite the clear water, I cannot see my sarassus comet or
butterfly koi because they are hiding. Constatntly hiding. The first
day we brought the two fishes home, they were swimming to an fro
ravaging me hyacinth and generally quite entertaining. The next
morning, my wife and I sat outside for the better part of the early
morning hours just watching them swim around. Later that day they
seemed to settle down. They werent swimming around or moving much. I
thought , well, theyre just not very active this time of day. Well, its
been almost a week and they have barely moved at all in the past 6-7
days. They keep hiding out by flower pots and under whatever they can
find. They wont move at all. My sarassus has been in the same spot all
day long. They will move around if disturbed, quite quickly too- right
back to where they were hiding. They seem ok physically, they look ok
physically, best I can tell. They just will not eat AT ALL and they
just lay motionless on the bottom of the pond, hiding. I have tested my
water: 1200 gallon pond -No Ammonia, no nitrites nor nitrAtes, PH(after
a 10% water change) is ~ 7.5-8. GH is at 75ppm and KH is at 40ppm, low
i know. I have bought some baking soda to attempt to stabalize/raise
PH#. As far as I can tell, other than the PH and KH everything seems
fine. What could be causing this lethargy in my poor fish? Also, how
much baking soda should I add to raise the KH from 40 to say, 120? I
used a formula I found elsewhere on the forum [ (1200*80)/5000=19.2oz
of baking soda to raise it from 40 to 120. ]How much should I add at
one time? All of it or about 1/4 of what I need over a period of 4
days? Should my GH be tampered with? Should I ask another question? Is
wrestling fixed? If a tree falls in the woods....

Will do. They came from a petstore which was probably problem number
one. However, they seem skittish of me which is weird seeing as how
they were in a tank where people could crowd around and stare down on
them for hours on end. I wouold think they would be less stressed if
anything. At least not scared of my presence. Of course they may see me
as a predator. I had to wade into the pond a couple of times to clean
out my filter. Maybe I just answered my own question.

Just give em some time if yu are sure they are not gun shy of a
predator........Just think about what a fish goes through until it
finally gets to its hopefully final home. As far as you know, the
petshop may have just got them in from the breeder, then all those
fooks tappiig on the glass, getting netted over and over thorough its
life, and separated from its social friends, and now dumped into yet
another body of water with totaly strange suroundings.........

Yes, yur wading into the pond may have contributed to them being shy,
but over time they get used to it....Mine routinely swim between my
legs while I am in my pond. Even when I get out in chest deep water
they just have to nibble on you........


On 13 Jun 2005 13:34:06 -0700, "robv60" wrote:

===Will do. They came from a petstore which was probably problem number
===one. However, they seem skittish of me which is weird seeing as how
===they were in a tank where people could crowd around and stare down on
===them for hours on end. I wouold think they would be less stressed if
===anything. At least not scared of my presence. Of course they may see me
===as a predator. I had to wade into the pond a couple of times to clean
===out my filter. Maybe I just answered my own question.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

Well Ive started adding baking soda to raise my KH and stabalize my PH.
I took a reading late last night and it had dropped considerably from
the reading I took earlier in the day. Ive been adding 1/2 cup every 12
or so hours to each pond, trying to raise the KH to ~120ppm. Trying not
to add it too fast, dont want to freak the little guys out anymore. Im
sure the swings in PH are'nt helping. The goldfish in my back pond dont
seem to care much, but maybe its affecting my koi and sarassus a
little, We'll see. Im having to add ~1 1/2 lbs to the back pond and a
little over 1 lbs to the front. Just did a KH test and it sppears the
KH in both ponds are sitting around 80ppm, up from 40ppm yesterday.
Improvement for sure. I have a salt test kit on its way, maybe i'll add
a little salt as a "stress reliever" as I have read on this forum.

As for the salt, I would not add it. Many of the books, and some of the
speakers over the years, encouraged the use of salt in the pond at the 0.1%
level to ease stress, etc. Current experts are telling me not to routinely
have salt in the pond. For parasite removal, the salt will need to be
raised at least 0.3% above the normal salt level. The parasites can adapt
to salt, but not rapid changes in salt level. Koi and goldfish are
freshwater fish and don't need any salt. Salt is good for protecting fish
during the high nitrite part of the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"robv60" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well Ive started adding baking soda to raise my KH and stabalize my PH.
I took a reading late last night and it had dropped considerably from
the reading I took earlier in the day. Ive been adding 1/2 cup every 12
or so hours to each pond, trying to raise the KH to ~120ppm. Trying not
to add it too fast, dont want to freak the little guys out anymore. Im
sure the swings in PH are'nt helping. The goldfish in my back pond dont
seem to care much, but maybe its affecting my koi and sarassus a
little, We'll see. Im having to add ~1 1/2 lbs to the back pond and a
little over 1 lbs to the front. Just did a KH test and it sppears the
KH in both ponds are sitting around 80ppm, up from 40ppm yesterday.
Improvement for sure. I have a salt test kit on its way, maybe i'll add
a little salt as a "stress reliever" as I have read on this forum.

On 13 Jun 2005 15:33:01 -0700, "robv60" wrote:

Well Ive started adding baking soda to raise my KH and stabalize my PH.
I took a reading late last night and it had dropped considerably from
the reading I took earlier in the day. Ive been adding 1/2 cup every 12
or so hours to each pond, trying to raise the KH to ~120ppm. Trying not
to add it too fast, dont want to freak the little guys out anymore. Im
sure the swings in PH are'nt helping. The goldfish in my back pond dont
seem to care much, but maybe its affecting my koi and sarassus a
little, We'll see. Im having to add ~1 1/2 lbs to the back pond and a
little over 1 lbs to the front. Just did a KH test and it sppears the
KH in both ponds are sitting around 80ppm, up from 40ppm yesterday.
Improvement for sure. I have a salt test kit on its way, maybe i'll add
a little salt as a "stress reliever" as I have read on this forum.

The above is exactly what I would have suggested. After reading RTB
response about salt, I'm in agreement with what he says, only I'd still add
salt to 0.1% to see if it helps to de-stress, and then reduce it down with
water changes, not leave it in permanently like some people have been known
to do, for the exact reason RTB mentioned. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Great news! I spent the better part of the afternoon trying to net a
couple of my goldfish from the back pond to put up front with the
sarassa and the koi. After much turmoil and the little sh*ts taunting
me by swimming through my legs, I finally managed to net ONE. Put him
up front and went to try and catch another one. After about 45 minutes
I gave up and went to check on the goldfish in the front pond. To my
surprise, the sarassa and the koi were out and about swimming with the
goldfish. I threw some food in and they ate a little. Now the goldfish
and the sarassa are swimming around all up in each others grill, the
koi is pretty much just pigging out on stuff in the pond keeping to
himself. Im really surprised they came out that quickly from hiding
just by putting one goldfish in the pond Yippie!

Wow, i cant believe it. I figured they would freak out even more by
having a strange fish in the pond that wasnt in "the club". I at least
thought it would take longer for them to get used to the goldfish. Im
so happy!

On 14 Jun 2005 19:26:07 -0700, "robv60" wrote:

Wow, i cant believe it. I figured they would freak out even more by
having a strange fish in the pond that wasnt in "the club". I at least
thought it would take longer for them to get used to the goldfish. Im
so happy!

Woo Hoo, Robv60! ;-) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Of course now they're hiding again, water is most likely too warm for
them today. I hope thats why anyway. Nice to see my fish again though.
Ate my breakfast by the pond this morning watching them swim and eat
swim and eat....and eat.

"robv60" wrote in message
oups.com...
Wow, i cant believe it. I figured they would freak out even more by
having a strange fish in the pond that wasnt in "the club". I at least
thought it would take longer for them to get used to the goldfish. Im
so happy!
===============================
They probably feel safer in larger numbers. Did you ever hear of "dither
fish?" It works in aquariums so surely works in ponds.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Well, they certianly didnt hesitate to come out and join the goldfish,
guess they just needed to be show it was ok to come out of hiding.

"robv60" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, they certianly didnt hesitate to come out and join the goldfish,
guess they just needed to be show it was ok to come out of hiding.
=======================
Exactly! :-))
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o