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#1
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
Just came back in from surveying the damage from heavy rains and not
spraying either fungicide or insecticide since the middle of May, and it is terrible. I was able to fertilize with some generic three-month granular at the end of May. Leaving aside the vole casualties for now, here is what died or is on its way out: This season's bare roots, all grafted: Arizona Melody Parfume Outta the Blue Joseph's Coat Barbra Streisand Blue Nile Other seasons's grafted: Antigua Angel Face Mr. Lincoln Tiffany There is advanced borer damage on all the grafted roses, but especially the dead one (!) that tells me I need to address this problem. I had thought all I had was the relatively harmless kind, but apparently not. On the dead grafted roses AND the living ones there has been terrible canker and cane dieback. The bare roots had been doing well--maybe half the canes very vigorous. Then they dwindled as the rain went on. Question: What do you all consider good for a bareroot, in terms of how many of the canes actually live and sprout? Here is the big surprise, and I will not even pretend to understand it: Here in my zone 7B, Raleigh, NC garden, after this two-month deluge, where I have generally sprayed for both insects and fungus over the years, and where the soil is rich and black, where I keep the plants well mulched, and where the temps range from 40F to 100F April to October, ALL of my own root roses are doing well. ALL of them, from the ones I ordered from Michael's in 2000 to the ones from Muncy's and Roses Unlimited that I just put in last fall. Many of these are Austins. Of all of them, the Austins look the best. Is this because they are "English" roses and so bred to do the backstroke for a couple of months and still survive? Or what? All the ownroots are still green--even the hybrid teas--but all the Austins still have LEAVES. Just an observation, no theories or claims etc. But I am thinking I'm not going to buy anything but ownroots next year. What do you all think about this? Can anyone offer any theories as to why this is? |
#2
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
In m Shiva wrote:
Just an observation, no theories or claims etc. But I am thinking I'm not going to buy anything but ownroots next year. What do you all think about this? Can anyone offer any theories as to why this is? It stumps me too, Shiva. Possibly the grafts are grumbling about rootstock that is waterlogged, whereas on their own weaker roots the plant can pace itself better in poor conditions. I doubt the fact that some of them are Austins makes too much difference. Bear in mind they are bred primarily for England's wet climate. In Sydney Australia I find they tend to die MORE easily than HTs and floribundas, but all mine are grafted anyway. |
#3
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
In article .com.au,
Daniel Hanna wrote: In m Shiva wrote: Just an observation, no theories or claims etc. But I am thinking I'm not going to buy anything but ownroots next year. What do you all think about this? Can anyone offer any theories as to why this is? It stumps me too, Shiva. Possibly the grafts are grumbling about rootstock that is waterlogged, whereas on their own weaker roots the plant can pace itself better in poor conditions. Waterlogged, soil chemistry, susceptibility to nematodes, who knows. But I've only rarely found own roots to have weak roots. But I only have a few really modern roses. I doubt the fact that some of them are Austins makes too much difference. Bear in mind they are bred primarily for England's wet climate. In Sydney Australia I find they tend to die MORE easily than HTs and floribundas, but all mine are grafted anyway. |
#4
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
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#5
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
The primary advantage to grafted roses is for the whosale grower, it allows
them to get a plant to the market place a year earlier than own root plants. The root structure of a grafted rose is already established when the grafting is done; this gives the grafted portion of the plant a boost in establishing new canes. Root stock is usually selected to perform in the climate and soil conditions of the whosale grower. The root stock may not perform well in your location. For example the growers in the SE area of the US use fortuniania because it does well in the region. Those in the NW usually choose Dr. Huey. Some varieties don't do well on their own roots, the breeding program was based on foliar and bloom performance based upon grafting. Little consideration was given to the root system of the hybrid and as a result they may not have a healthy vigorous root system. Another reason for grafting is to prevent suckering, some old varieties and species roses have VERY vigorous root systems that sucker readily and can be a nuisance if they are not grafted. Austrian Copper and Persian Yellow come to mind. Keep in mind that the primary goal of any organism is survival and propagation, the species roses were successful because they could perpetuate them selves, often due to a very robust and vigorous root system. Think about some of our 'pest' plants, you can cut all the above ground growth and they return from the root system. Kudzu in the South East US and bind weed in the west are prime examples. Just a few thoughts about grafting and roots. Tim |
#6
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
There is probably a selection bias involved. A plant that is vigorous enough to live on its own roots is probably vigorous enough to fight of disease etc. "Cass" wrote in message .. . In article .com.au, Daniel Hanna wrote: In m Shiva wrote: Just an observation, no theories or claims etc. But I am thinking I'm not going to buy anything but ownroots next year. What do you all think about this? Can anyone offer any theories as to why this is? There are many roses that I grow own root that will probably do much better grafted. Dublin Bay, Kaiserin Aguste Viktoria & Sombreuil spring to mind. I saw a 14' monster Som. growing on neighbhors porch that was grafted and had received no real consideration while my own root was euthanized after growing 8" in 2 years. It stumps me too, Shiva. Possibly the grafts are grumbling about rootstock that is waterlogged, whereas on their own weaker roots the plant can pace itself better in poor conditions. Waterlogged, soil chemistry, susceptibility to nematodes, who knows. But I've only rarely found own roots to have weak roots. But I only have a few really modern roses. I doubt the fact that some of them are Austins makes too much difference. Bear in mind they are bred primarily for England's wet climate. In Sydney Australia I find they tend to die MORE easily than HTs and floribundas, but all mine are grafted anyway. Austins are not particularly more tolerant of rain. If anything they are less tolerant. Esp. w/ disease and balling. I've always wondered how they grow such disease prone roses in wet england. Do they spray constantly? Abe Darby spots like crazy. And it actually had clean clean new dawn as a parent. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City |
#7
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
There is probably a selection bias involved. A plant that is vigorous enough to live on its own roots is probably vigorous enough to fight of disease etc. "Cass" wrote in message .. . In article .com.au, Daniel Hanna wrote: In m Shiva wrote: Just an observation, no theories or claims etc. But I am thinking I'm not going to buy anything but ownroots next year. What do you all think about this? Can anyone offer any theories as to why this is? There are many roses that I grow own root that will probably do much better grafted. Dublin Bay, Kaiserin Aguste Viktoria & Sombreuil spring to mind. I saw a 14' monster Som. growing on neighbhors porch that was grafted and had received no real consideration while my own root was euthanized after growing 8" in 2 years. It stumps me too, Shiva. Possibly the grafts are grumbling about rootstock that is waterlogged, whereas on their own weaker roots the plant can pace itself better in poor conditions. Waterlogged, soil chemistry, susceptibility to nematodes, who knows. But I've only rarely found own roots to have weak roots. But I only have a few really modern roses. I doubt the fact that some of them are Austins makes too much difference. Bear in mind they are bred primarily for England's wet climate. In Sydney Australia I find they tend to die MORE easily than HTs and floribundas, but all mine are grafted anyway. Austins are not particularly more tolerant of rain. If anything they are less tolerant. Esp. w/ disease and balling. I've always wondered how they grow such disease prone roses in wet england. Do they spray constantly? Abe Darby spots like crazy. And it actually had clean clean new dawn as a parent. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City |
#8
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
On 05 Jul 2003 23:43:16 GMT, Daniel Hanna
wrote: think about this? Can anyone offer any theories as to why this is? It stumps me too, Shiva. Possibly the grafts are grumbling about rootstock that is waterlogged, whereas on their own weaker roots the plant can pace itself better in poor conditions. They all drain well, although we have had an awful lot of rain. I doubt the fact that some of them are Austins makes too much difference. Bear in mind they are bred primarily for England's wet climate. In Sydney Australia I find they tend to die MORE easily than HTs and floribundas, but all mine are grafted anyway. I think it is the own root element, rather than the Austin element. I also think my problem has been due to fungal disease combined with the kind of cane borers that can kill roses. I rarely see borer damage on the thin young canes of my own root roses. The borers seem to like the thick stumps of the grafted roses. My oldest own roots have thick canes, but few that have been cut off close to the crown. |
#9
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 10:32:37 -0700, Cass
wrote: Waterlogged, soil chemistry, susceptibility to nematodes, who knows. We don't have nematodes here. Our local ag folks do not even recommend fortuniana root stock. The soil is fabulous, full of organic material, rich and black. The young bare roots that died are all in the new bed, the one a professional dug and amended for me, and I added to over a year or so. He drilled under the clay beyond the hardpan into the sand for drainage. Here is the kicker: right across from the young dead grafted roses, DOING GREAT are these own-roots, from Muncy's and Roses Unlimited, planted last fall after hanging around in pots WAYY too long: Payl Neyron, 2 Abraham Darbys, Golden Celebration, Pat Austin, and Penelope, Tradescant. They are actually blooming and full of buds. In one of the other large beds in the back, ownroot Granadas, The Prince, Tamora, and Radio Times thrive, while older bare roots bought in 2000-2002 languish. Much dieback, no leaves. Very odd. I'm glad I at least got the granular food down early in the rain spell. I see some new foliage now. Also--the new bare roots in the front bed on the hill are doing great. *Shrug* I have waxed philosophical about it--always the thing to do during sucky times. I don't have the urge to replace the dead roses, but to buy some next year that I REALLY want to grow. But I've only rarely found own roots to have weak roots. But I only have a few really modern roses. I doubt the fact that some of them are Austins makes too much difference. Bear in mind they are bred primarily for England's wet climate. In Sydney Australia I find they tend to die MORE easily than HTs and floribundas, but all mine are grafted anyway. |
#10
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:40:40 GMT, "Theo Asir"
wrote: There is probably a selection bias involved. A plant that is vigorous enough to live on its own roots is probably vigorous enough to fight of disease etc. Theo, please tell me, when you plant a bare root, how many of the canes usually make it and how many die? Nobody answered that one. I thought two or three good ones was fine. Or should they all sprout? I did care for mine, looked at them every day, did not fert, watered deeply AND moistened canes, mounded pine straw. |
#11
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
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#12
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
In article m, Shiva
wrote: On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 10:32:37 -0700, Cass wrote: who knows. The soil is fabulous, full of organic material, rich and black. The young bare roots that died are all in the new bed, the one a professional dug and amended for me, and I added to over a year or so. He drilled under the clay beyond the hardpan into the sand for drainage. Here is the kicker: right across from the young dead grafted roses, DOING GREAT are these own-roots, from Muncy's and Roses Unlimited, planted last fall after hanging around in pots WAYY too long: Payl Neyron, 2 Abraham Darbys, Golden Celebration, Pat Austin, and Penelope, Tradescant. They are actually blooming and full of buds. In one of the other large beds in the back, ownroot Granadas, The Prince, Tamora, and Radio Times thrive, while older bare roots bought in 2000-2002 languish. Much dieback, no leaves. Very odd. I'm glad I at least got the granular food down early in the rain spell. I see some new foliage now. Also--the new bare roots in the front bed on the hill are doing great. *Shrug* I have waxed philosophical about it--always the thing to do during sucky times. I don't have the urge to replace the dead roses, but to buy some next year that I REALLY want to grow. Hey, I can't explain it either. But I did read an article in the American Rose Annual that said argued that since different fruit tree rootstocks are known to have different effects on the grafted scion and do differently in different soils - some are dwarfing with other produce giantism -some are incompatible with particular cultivars - some are drought resistant - some confer greater resistance to certain diseases -- so, the article said, if all those effects are know from fruit tree root stocks, it make perfect sense that the same happens in roses. I believe it to be true. I'd say 50% of my budded roses fail or are virused or both. I'd say under 5 % of my own root roses fail or are virused or both. Nope, I don't buy the party line about budded and OR being the same. Maybe in some places or with some roses. Not here and not with all roses. I have duplicates, budded and OR, of a number of roses I really like, where my original budded plants are unsatisfactory for a variety of reasons (awkward, virused, not vigorous). Every one of the OR's is a superior plant. Period. And yet some of my best roses are budded onto Huey. And Huey grows like a demon here, suckers from root divisions everywhere. So I can't say Huey is the problem. |
#13
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In Praise of Own-roots--and Austins!
Usually the original canes get trimmed by me once the plant has put out a couple of basals. Graham Thomas & the pilgrim consist of just two basals each. Usually I bury the little plant deep enough to get the first branching node below ground. But 50% of the time I lose atleast one of these branches. In my experience these teeny close to ground and disease, branches are a pita once basals are up & established. I nix them in double quick time. Properity is the one exception I can think of since the original cane is now about 3/4" thick. When I planted george vancouver I had atleast 8-9 thin canes sticking out. After a couple of months I was down to 2. But those soon grew and put out basals. There is no real way to find out which cane will Damp off (I feel it is a similar process) but some does occur. I do spray the little ones w/ a Manzate/Clearys mixture to prevent a fungal attack at that stage. A weird thing I've noticed is that my own root loses when I plant after June 1 are nil. Perhaps the heat and dryness prevents damping off. Weird. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City Who's hoping Eden Rose will put out soon... "Shiva" wrote in message s.com... On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:40:40 GMT, "Theo Asir" wrote: There is probably a selection bias involved. A plant that is vigorous enough to live on its own roots is probably vigorous enough to fight of disease etc. Theo, please tell me, when you plant a bare root, how many of the canes usually make it and how many die? Nobody answered that one. I thought two or three good ones was fine. Or should they all sprout? I did care for mine, looked at them every day, did not fert, watered deeply AND moistened canes, mounded pine straw. |
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