Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous. I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens, Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.
So I got my roses a week and change ago, and was amazed at how
small the plants seemed -- around half the size of roses I see at
nurseries and such. But I figured, okay, they're young. Then I note
the planting instructions. 2'x2'x2' holes? Good god! I am a no-till
vegetable gardener, and the thought of digging those enormous holes in
my clay-masquerading-as-soil daunted me. Then I actually dug a hole
and put the Robert Clemens in. I'm exhausted. It took me days to dig
the hole and then try and condition the soil and put the rocks in for
drainage and all the other instructions. Meanwhile, the other three
plants are still in their little tree seedling containers and I am
starting to get worried about them. Should I temporarily pot them?
If so, in what size pots? Do I really have to dig the other three
holes, or could I no-till them? Help?



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

"Orchid" wrote in message
...
Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous.

I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens,
Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because
I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root
heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.

I'm 99.875% organic and I have all manner
of modern and antique roses, grafted and
own root that do just fine. (Local weather
conditions might help that a lot...) My advice is:
try something you like, if it thrives, great. If it
doesn't, try something else.

So I got my roses a week and change ago, and was amazed at
how
small the plants seemed -- around half the size of roses I
see at
nurseries and such. But I figured, okay, they're young.

Yep. Sometimes those do really well. But be
patient. It might take time for them to grow.

Then I note
the planting instructions. 2'x2'x2' holes? Good god! I
am a no-till
vegetable gardener, and the thought of digging those
enormous holes in
my clay-masquerading-as-soil daunted me.

If your clay is anything like my clay, that hole size
is pretty much a minimum. Roses need good
drainage.

Then I actually dug a hole
and put the Robert Clemens in. I'm exhausted. It took me
days to dig
the hole and then try and condition the soil and put the
rocks in for
drainage and all the other instructions.

Rocks? I've never done that but I probably
don't have your exact soil conditions. I found
out the hard way the best way to deal with fine
(heavy) clay is with a garden fork - 4 flat tongs
or tines that go into the soil relatively easily and
can even be counted on to excavate a lot of
the soil. I have bent the tines on so many garden
forks I now buy Craftsman (Sears) garden forks
exclusively, since they'll replace the damaged ones
for free. The fiberglass handles are really nice,
and generally lighter in weight but tough.

Re amending holes: There are lots of different
opinions. I buy a local "rose soil" that consists of
fine shredded mulch, compost, and orange
sand. I usually mix some of the clay back into
the hole but don't go to any lengths to mix it up well.
Roses are pretty forgiving of soil conditions so I
wouldn't get too obsessive about one set of
instructions from one nursery. Sometimes you do
everything *exactly right* and the stupid rose
dies anyway. Then you throw a $2.00 Wal-Mart
"rescue" into a poorly prepared hole and the rose
is the best rose you have! Frustrating but fun,
not unlike golf at times.

Go to www.ars.org
Do a site search on planting roses and start
reading.

Meanwhile, the other three
plants are still in their little tree seedling containers
and I am
starting to get worried about them. Should I temporarily
pot them?

Sure. I usually do that with young roses rather than
put them in the ground immediately. Then you can
plant them in the fall or even next spring, assuming
you protect them from winter cold. But don't go by
my advice; I live in a much warmer climate. Check
out those American Rose Society articles instead.
Or better yet, ask a local nursery that specializes
in roses, or a botanical garden.

If so, in what size pots? Do I really have to dig the
other three
holes, or could I no-till them? Help?

One gallon pots should be sufficient for the shrub
roses; maybe 2 gallons for the climber, since they
tend to grow faster. You can use the black plastic
straight sided nursery pots. They make it easier to
transplant later on than the sloping sided pots
(experience speaking).

I don't know what no-tilling means, but will
repeat the advice about digging a good hole.
I have gotten away with an 18" deep hole, and
I've also used raised beds (9" above ground),
meaning I only have to dig down about 9".

Good luck.

Gail
near San Antonio TX Zone 8

Orchid writes:

Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous. I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens, Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.

You can't really generalize -- some new varieties are very disease
resistant, and some old varieties are disease-prone.
Heirloom in Oregon? They're on the other coast. I like them, but I
live in Seattle, where I can visit them or get them shipped in a day.
There's something to be said for using local nurseries so they can
give you advice that's appropriate to your climate and soil, and so
the roses don't dry up in shipping. Heirloom, despite their name,
carries both old varieties and new ones.

The benefits of own-root roses are somewhat controversial. If you
live where hard freezes are a problem, it's nice that the roots will
come up the same variety, not rootstock. I'm not at all sure that
they're more disease resistant than grafted roses. Own-root might be
longer lived, but are usually slower to get started. You can grow
nice roses either way.

So I got my roses a week and change ago, and was amazed at how
small the plants seemed -- around half the size of roses I see at
nurseries and such. But I figured, okay, they're young. Then I note
the planting instructions. 2'x2'x2' holes? Good god!

Yes! They're not kidding. It's a huge help to the rose to have that
big hole, both young like Heirloom ships and in big pots from
nurseries. Especially important if you've got clay or other poor soil.


I am a no-till vegetable gardener, and the thought of digging those
enormous holes in my clay-masquerading-as-soil daunted me. Then I
actually dug a hole and put the Robert Clemens in. I'm exhausted.
It took me days to dig the hole and then try and condition the soil
and put the rocks in for drainage and all the other instructions.
Meanwhile, the other three plants are still in their little tree
seedling containers and I am starting to get worried about them.
Should I temporarily pot them? If so, in what size pots?

Depends how long it'll be. If it's a matter of just a couple of weeks
I might let them stay in the little bitty pots. But be careful to
keep them watered, especially if it's hot there. If it'll be longer,
a bigger pot, depending on how long it'll be before you get around to
putting them in a permanent home. Gallon pots should be good for 9
months plus...

Do I really have to dig the other three holes, or could I no-till
them?

Dig the holes... They might live without them, but they're more
likely to get established and will live healthier lives with big
holes.

"Orchid" wrote in message
...
Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous. I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens, Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.

Don't know about the other three, but you may have a bit of trouble keeping
Joseph's coat blackspot-free if you're going all-organic. It is a very
pretty rose, but it does tend to blackspot pretty badly, even using
synthetic sprays. I've used neem oil and truthfully it doesn't work all
that well, though it does give a nice shine to the leaves. On the other
hand, if the blackspot doesn't make you all crazy, the blooms make it worth
tolerating a little blackspot.

Joseph's coat hasn't been a real fast grower for me either, though it's not
THAT bad....
as always, "your mileage may vary...."

JimS.
Seattle, Zone 8

On Tue, 18 May 2004 01:50:33 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
wrote:

I'm 99.875% organic and I have all manner
of modern and antique roses, grafted and
own root that do just fine. (Local weather
conditions might help that a lot...) My advice is:
try something you like, if it thrives, great. If it
doesn't, try something else.

I'll keep that in mind. If something doesn't thrive, can
I remove the plant and use the hole, or am I digging another hole?

Yep. Sometimes those do really well. But be
patient. It might take time for them to grow.

I had to laugh -- my climber 'Compassion' has a flower on it.
Even though it's still in the seedling pot. I guess I don't have to
worry about it *too* much.

If your clay is anything like my clay, that hole size
is pretty much a minimum. Roses need good
drainage.

I'll keep that mind -- as for the hole size, I've given up and
hired a terribly nice young tanned man to dig my holes for me
tomorrow. Easier and with the added bonus of something nice to
watch.

Rocks? I've never done that but I probably
don't have your exact soil conditions.

The nursery said to dig the hole put water in it, and if it
hadn't drained in 24 hours to put a 4-5" layer of rocks in the bottom
for better drainage.

I found
out the hard way the best way to deal with fine
(heavy) clay is with a garden fork - 4 flat tongs
or tines that go into the soil relatively easily and
can even be counted on to excavate a lot of
the soil. I have bent the tines on so many garden
forks I now buy Craftsman (Sears) garden forks
exclusively, since they'll replace the damaged ones
for free. The fiberglass handles are really nice,
and generally lighter in weight but tough.

I'll certainly keep this in mind.

Re amending holes: There are lots of different
opinions. I buy a local "rose soil" that consists of
fine shredded mulch, compost, and orange
sand. I usually mix some of the clay back into
the hole but don't go to any lengths to mix it up well.
Roses are pretty forgiving of soil conditions so I
wouldn't get too obsessive about one set of
instructions from one nursery.

What I did for my soil was mix a little over half the soil
from the top of the hole with equal parts Leafgro and Super Fine soil
conditioner. This has worked for me in the past when I've done tilled
beds.

Go to www.ars.org
Do a site search on planting roses and start
reading.

Thanks for the link! I've been devouring articles since I saw

Sure. I usually do that with young roses rather than
put them in the ground immediately. Then you can
plant them in the fall or even next spring, assuming
you protect them from winter cold.

Well, since the nice young man is digging my holes for me
tomorrow, I'm not going to worry about potting and just get them in
the ground tomorrow. I live in a non-garage townhouse so I don't have
anywhere I could put giant pots during the winter. But thanks for the
tip!

I don't know what no-tilling means, but will
repeat the advice about digging a good hole.
I have gotten away with an 18" deep hole, and
I've also used raised beds (9" above ground),
meaning I only have to dig down about 9".

No-till is a growing organic movement that espouses not
tilling beds at all. Not only is it *way* easier (always a good
thing) but it doesn't disrupt the good things in soil like earthworms,
beneficial bacteria, nematodes (which hunt down grubs), and beneficial
fungi. To plant using it, you lay compost, plant your
seeds/seedlings, and then mulch over it. Worms and other natural
breakers down of soil will move up into the new 'top layer' and
convert it into natural topsoil that's loose and aerated and just
wonderful for plants.

Some good links:
http://www.farm-garden.com/primers/2...-gardening.htm
http://www.pathtofreedom.com/backtob...ardening.shtml
http://www.mg.umn.edu/notill.html



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

On 17 May 2004 19:46:09 -0700, Patrick Scheible
wrote:

Orchid writes:

Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous. I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens, Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.

You can't really generalize -- some new varieties are very disease
resistant, and some old varieties are disease-prone.

Really? Hmmm. Good to know.

Heirloom in Oregon? They're on the other coast. I like them, but I
live in Seattle, where I can visit them or get them shipped in a day.
There's something to be said for using local nurseries so they can
give you advice that's appropriate to your climate and soil, and so
the roses don't dry up in shipping. Heirloom, despite their name,
carries both old varieties and new ones.

I'd kind of thought that.

The benefits of own-root roses are somewhat controversial. If you
live where hard freezes are a problem, it's nice that the roots will
come up the same variety, not rootstock. I'm not at all sure that
they're more disease resistant than grafted roses. Own-root might be
longer lived, but are usually slower to get started. You can grow
nice roses either way.

I'm patient, so I think I'll be fine waiting for them to grow.
Plants don't have to be immediately perfect, IMO. I'm in the DC Metro
area, and hard freezes can be a problem. I also just prefer the idea
of own-root plants to Frankenplants.


Yes! They're not kidding. It's a huge help to the rose to have that
big hole, both young like Heirloom ships and in big pots from
nurseries. Especially important if you've got clay or other poor soil.

Thanks for the advice.

Dig the holes... They might live without them, but they're more
likely to get established and will live healthier lives with big
holes.

Thanks! Advice is noted and taken!




Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

On Tue, 18 May 2004 04:52:24 GMT, "JimS."
wrote:


"Orchid" wrote in message
.. .
Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous. I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens, Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.

Don't know about the other three, but you may have a bit of trouble keeping
Joseph's coat blackspot-free if you're going all-organic. It is a very
pretty rose, but it does tend to blackspot pretty badly, even using
synthetic sprays. I've used neem oil and truthfully it doesn't work all
that well, though it does give a nice shine to the leaves. On the other
hand, if the blackspot doesn't make you all crazy, the blooms make it worth
tolerating a little blackspot.

Is blackspot fatal or just 'not pretty'? Fatal is not good,
'not pretty' is not a big deal to me.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:07:48 -0400, Orchid
wrote:

On Tue, 18 May 2004 04:52:24 GMT, "JimS."
wrote:


"Orchid" wrote in message
. ..
Hi all. This is my first time planting roses, and I'm a
little nervous. I live in Northern Virgina (Zone 7/6) and I ordered
three bushes and a climber (Joseph's Coat, Robert Clemens, Laura, and
Compassion) from www.heirloomroses.com, primarily because I am an
organic gardener, and I've been told that the own-root heirloom
varities do not require lots of synthetic sprays.

Don't know about the other three, but you may have a bit of trouble keeping
Joseph's coat blackspot-free if you're going all-organic. It is a very
pretty rose, but it does tend to blackspot pretty badly, even using
synthetic sprays. I've used neem oil and truthfully it doesn't work all
that well, though it does give a nice shine to the leaves. On the other
hand, if the blackspot doesn't make you all crazy, the blooms make it worth
tolerating a little blackspot.

Is blackspot fatal or just 'not pretty'? Fatal is not good,
'not pretty' is not a big deal to me.

It's somewhere in between. It's rarely fatal, but losing a lot of your
photosynthesis engine can't be great for the general well-being of the
plant.

And ugly is ugly. I know. I've got a lot of the damn stuff
myself...I've got a friend in your area (Sterling to be exact) and he
and his wife are struggling with blackspot at the moment as well...

"Orchid" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 May 2004 01:50:33 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
wrote:
[some snips ahead]

I'll keep that in mind. If something doesn't thrive,
can
I remove the plant and use the hole, or am I digging
another hole?

I always replace the soil before planting a new
rose, but that's not hard once amended and you're
using the same hole. If a rose dies quickly and you're
pretty sure it's due to something eating it, like deer or
rabbits, you could probably even use the same soil.

I had to laugh -- my climber 'Compassion' has a flower on
it.
Even though it's still in the seedling pot. I guess I
don't have to
worry about it *too* much.

Nice! I love seeing that. Some roses will bloom a
lot more quickly than others. Most of my noisettes
(climbers) bloomed a month before some of the
other roses in my garden.

I'll keep that mind -- as for the hole size, I've given up
and
hired a terribly nice young tanned man to dig my holes for
me
tomorrow. Easier and with the added bonus of
something nice to
watch.

Very very sensible. If I were smart I would have
done the same, but there's something satisfying
about digging a really big hole in the ground. (I
know, I need to get a life...)

Rocks? I've never done that but I probably
don't have your exact soil conditions.

The nursery said to dig the hole put water in it, and if
it
hadn't drained in 24 hours to put a 4-5" layer of rocks in
the bottom
for better drainage.

Now I understand. I don't see why that wouldn't
work. Maybe someone else on the group will
have some input.

What I did for my soil was mix a little over half the soil
from the top of the hole with equal parts Leafgro and
Super Fine soil
conditioner. This has worked for me in the past when I've
done tilled
beds.

That should work. You can also work some
perlite into the soil to keep it from compacting,
but that's something you can even do in later
years.

Well, since the nice young man is digging my holes for me
tomorrow, I'm not going to worry about potting and just
get them in
the ground tomorrow. I live in a non-garage townhouse so
I don't have
anywhere I could put giant pots during the winter. But
thanks for the
tip!

You're welcome.

No-till is a growing organic movement that espouses not
tilling beds at all. Not only is it *way* easier (always
a good
thing) but it doesn't disrupt the good things in soil like
earthworms,
beneficial bacteria, nematodes (which hunt down grubs),
and beneficial
fungi. To plant using it, you lay compost, plant your
seeds/seedlings, and then mulch over it. Worms and other
natural
breakers down of soil will move up into the new 'top
layer' and
convert it into natural topsoil that's loose and aerated
and just
wonderful for plants.

Thanks for the information and the links. I tend to
do that anyway for my rose and herb beds, but it's
nice to know there's a reason for it (other than my
inherent laziness!).

Some good links:

http://www.farm-garden.com/primers/2...-gardening.htm

http://www.pathtofreedom.com/backtob...ardening.shtml
http://www.mg.umn.edu/notill.html

Gail