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#1
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another sand question
Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks: "I did read somewhere that builders coarse sand (not normal builders sand) is okay to use as long as it's coarse enough and is very much cheaper than stuff you'd buy from a garden centre (which you can only buy by the bag so would cost a fortune to buy the volumes that you generally need). Do you think that's true? I also saw some things that say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil (either high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)" Any help to complete neophytes would be much appreciated! -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
#2
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another sand question
In article , Klara writes: | | Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house | near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp | sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the | best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks: That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the soil level correspondingly. Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#3
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another sand question
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Klara writes: | | Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house | near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp | sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the | best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks: That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the soil level correspondingly. Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Thanks, Nick, I should have said that the thought is to dig in some sand, then build raised beds on top of that, presumably consisting of cardboard, then straw with rotted horse manure, and topsoil on top of that, in the hope that in time it will all wander down and improve the soil proper. -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
#4
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another sand question
On Apr 12, 1:58 pm, Klara wrote:
In message , Nick Maclaren writes In article , Klara writes: | | Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house | near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp | sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the | best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks: That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the soil level correspondingly. Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Thanks, Nick, I should have said that the thought is to dig in some sand, then build raised beds on top of that, presumably consisting of cardboard, then straw with rotted horse manure, and topsoil on top of that, in the hope that in time it will all wander down and improve the soil proper. It might but it'll take a very long time and won't go very deep, depending of course on how thick the clay is. Areas of my garden are dug up clay and they're relatively easy to still dig etc compared to the concrete-like soil that it was before but still very muddy so no good for lawns etc. You could dig in some organic matter with a mini-digger and put the raised beds over that. |
#5
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another sand question
"Klara" wrote in message ... In message , Nick Maclaren writes In article , Klara writes: | | Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house | near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp | sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the | best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks: That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the soil level correspondingly. Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand. Regards, Nick Maclaren. Thanks, Nick, I should have said that the thought is to dig in some sand, then build raised beds on top of that, presumably consisting of cardboard, then straw with rotted horse manure, and topsoil on top of that, in the hope that in time it will all wander down and improve the soil proper. maybe just build the beds over the top a little higher than originally planned. After a few years the clay at the bottom may be improved. That seems far easier. rob |
#6
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another sand question
In message , George.com
writes maybe just build the beds over the top a little higher than originally planned. After a few years the clay at the bottom may be improved. That seems far easier. rob Thanks, Rob, have passed the message on ... maybe we were all making a bit too much of the problem! -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
#7
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another sand question
"Klara" wrote in message
(snip) I also saw some things that say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil (either high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)" Gypsum is calcium sulphate so adding it to high calcium soils just ads more calcium. The purpose of adding lime/gypsum/wood ash is to cause the clay particles to flocculate and make the clay "fluffier" or more open to water and roots being able to get through the pugginess (not very technical but my brain has gone to bed). Add sand and sawdust and leaves and manure or anything that has has once lived including old dead weeds, dead hens or old cotton Tshirts or green manure crops. Tell her to not expect very much in the first year and even if the veg she grows are pathetic, it will get better with each succeeding year. |
#8
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another sand question
In message
, FarmI writes "Klara" wrote in message (snip) I also saw some things that say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil (either high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)" Gypsum is calcium sulphate so adding it to high calcium soils just ads more calcium. The purpose of adding lime/gypsum/wood ash is to cause the clay particles to flocculate and make the clay "fluffier" or more open to water and roots being able to get through the pugginess (not very technical but my brain has gone to bed). Add sand and sawdust and leaves and manure or anything that has has once lived including old dead weeds, dead hens or old cotton Tshirts or green manure crops. Tell her to not expect very much in the first year and even if the veg she grows are pathetic, it will get better with each succeeding year. Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil, with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they manage will cost an eye-watering amount ... -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
#9
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another sand question
"Klara" wrote in message ... In message , FarmI writes "Klara" wrote in message (snip) I also saw some things that say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil (either high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)" Gypsum is calcium sulphate so adding it to high calcium soils just ads more calcium. The purpose of adding lime/gypsum/wood ash is to cause the clay particles to flocculate and make the clay "fluffier" or more open to water and roots being able to get through the pugginess (not very technical but my brain has gone to bed). Add sand and sawdust and leaves and manure or anything that has has once lived including old dead weeds, dead hens or old cotton Tshirts or green manure crops. Tell her to not expect very much in the first year and even if the veg she grows are pathetic, it will get better with each succeeding year. Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil, with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they manage will cost an eye-watering amount ... -- Klara, Gatwick basin If the clay is that bad you cannot grow in it ,maybe you would be better off digging the clay over,put deep raised beds over and fill with a good top soil,then every year put a thick mulch on top and let it work in before you start planting.The other option is to go for it on improving your clay with organic matter,ie compost,manure and grit.Sharp sand maybe to fine be careful what sand you buy if you go for the sand option.One thing you did not mention was the size of plot we are talking about? Cheers Keith Nottingham |
#10
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another sand question
Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil, with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they manage will cost an eye-watering amount ... -- Klara, Gatwick basin If the clay is that bad you cannot grow in it ,maybe you would be better off digging the clay over,put deep raised beds over and fill with a good top soil,then every year put a thick mulch on top and let it work in before you start planting.The other option is to go for it on improving your clay with organic matter,ie compost,manure and grit.Sharp sand maybe to fine be careful what sand you buy if you go for the sand option.One thing you did not mention was the size of plot we are talking about? Cheers Keith Nottingham The clay isn't solid, it would probably be possible to dig it and plant in it, but they want to start improving it as much as possible straight away. The whole eventual area must be about 5m x 15m, but they are planning to start with just two raised beds maybe 1m x 3m and gradually work their way over the garden. (Like everybody else, work and commute takes too many hours, so it's weekends only.) Are we overestimating the quantity of sand they need at this stage? -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
#11
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another sand question
On Apr 13, 8:55 am, Klara wrote:
Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil, with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they manage will cost an eye-watering amount ... Not if they just grow spuds and other tough crops to start breaking up the ground for this year. The soil has to be solid brickworks clay before they will fail to make a decent crop. Various fruit bushes and rhubarb will grow OK in heavy clay so only improve the soil where you want to grow tricky things needing good drainage. Clay soils are actually very fertile - just a bit inclined to be too wet in winter and rock hard in summer. If the clay is that bad you cannot grow in it ,maybe you would be better off digging the clay over,put deep raised beds over and fill with a good top soil,then every year put a thick mulch on top and let it work in before you start planting.The other option is to go for it on improving your clay with organic matter,ie compost,manure and grit.Sharp sand maybe to fine be careful what sand you buy if you go for the sand option.One thing you did not mention was the size of plot we are talking about? Cheers Keith Nottingham The clay isn't solid, it would probably be possible to dig it and plant in it, but they want to start improving it as much as possible straight away. The whole eventual area must be about 5m x 15m, but they are planning to start with just two raised beds maybe 1m x 3m and gradually work their way over the garden. (Like everybody else, work and commute takes too many hours, so it's weekends only.) Are we overestimating the quantity of sand they need at this stage? If you are determined to do it this way then try a 1T bag of sharp sand and work it in. But if you obtained the same amount of spent mushroom compost or well rotted compost the worms would mix it in for you. Like Nick I reckon adding sand to clay soils is vastly overrated. And proprietory clay flocculators are a total waste of time. You would do far better adding some organic bulk to the top as a mulch. So much better if you have a compost heap for all your own grass cuttings and/ or can buy in cheap council well rotted recycled green waste. If the clay isn't solid I would be tempted to grow the crops that will tolerate such conditions until the soil improves rather than spend a lit of time and money on it up front. That has always been my solution. YMMV. Regards, Martin Brown |
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