Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house
near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp
sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the
best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks:

"I did read somewhere that builders coarse sand (not normal builders
sand) is okay to use as long as it's coarse enough and is very much
cheaper than stuff you'd buy from a garden centre (which you can only
buy by the bag so would cost a fortune to buy the volumes that you
generally need). Do you think that's true? I also saw some things that
say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil
(either high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't
remember which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)"

Any help to complete neophytes would be much appreciated!



--
Klara, Gatwick basin

In article ,
Klara writes:
|
| Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house
| near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp
| sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the
| best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks:

That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order
to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for
every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the
soil level correspondingly.

Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and
that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant
supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Klara" wrote in message
(snip)
I also saw some things that
say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil (either
high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember
which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)"

Gypsum is calcium sulphate so adding it to high calcium soils just ads more
calcium. The purpose of adding lime/gypsum/wood ash is to cause the clay
particles to flocculate and make the clay "fluffier" or more open to water
and roots being able to get through the pugginess (not very technical but my
brain has gone to bed).

Add sand and sawdust and leaves and manure or anything that has has once
lived including old dead weeds, dead hens or old cotton Tshirts or green
manure crops. Tell her to not expect very much in the first year and even
if the veg she grows are pathetic, it will get better with each succeeding
year.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Klara writes:
|
| Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house
| near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp
| sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the
| best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks:

That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order
to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for
every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the
soil level correspondingly.

Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and
that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant
supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Thanks, Nick,

I should have said that the thought is to dig in some sand, then build
raised beds on top of that, presumably consisting of cardboard, then
straw with rotted horse manure, and topsoil on top of that, in the hope
that in time it will all wander down and improve the soil proper.


--
Klara, Gatwick basin

In message
, FarmI
writes
"Klara" wrote in message
(snip)
I also saw some things that
say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil (either
high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember
which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)"

Gypsum is calcium sulphate so adding it to high calcium soils just ads more
calcium. The purpose of adding lime/gypsum/wood ash is to cause the clay
particles to flocculate and make the clay "fluffier" or more open to water
and roots being able to get through the pugginess (not very technical but my
brain has gone to bed).

Add sand and sawdust and leaves and manure or anything that has has once
lived including old dead weeds, dead hens or old cotton Tshirts or green
manure crops. Tell her to not expect very much in the first year and even
if the veg she grows are pathetic, it will get better with each succeeding
year.

Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand
and soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of
topsoil, with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each
veg they manage will cost an eye-watering amount ...



--
Klara, Gatwick basin

On Apr 12, 1:58 pm, Klara wrote:
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes







In article ,
Klara writes:
|
| Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house
| near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp
| sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be the
| best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks:

That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order
to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for
every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the
soil level correspondingly.

Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and
that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant
supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Thanks, Nick,

I should have said that the thought is to dig in some sand, then build
raised beds on top of that, presumably consisting of cardboard, then
straw with rotted horse manure, and topsoil on top of that, in the hope
that in time it will all wander down and improve the soil proper.


It might but it'll take a very long time and won't go very deep,
depending of course on how thick the clay is.

Areas of my garden are dug up clay and they're relatively easy to
still dig etc compared to the concrete-like soil that it was before
but still very muddy so no good for lawns etc. You could dig in some
organic matter with a mini-digger and put the raised beds over that.

"Klara" wrote in message
...
In message ,
FarmI writes
"Klara" wrote in message
(snip)
I also saw some things that
say that gypsum only works with certain compositions of clay soil
(either
high calcium or low calcium or something like that but I can't remember
which, and on the wrong type it would make it worse!)"

Gypsum is calcium sulphate so adding it to high calcium soils just ads
more
calcium. The purpose of adding lime/gypsum/wood ash is to cause the clay
particles to flocculate and make the clay "fluffier" or more open to water
and roots being able to get through the pugginess (not very technical but
my
brain has gone to bed).

Add sand and sawdust and leaves and manure or anything that has has once
lived including old dead weeds, dead hens or old cotton Tshirts or green
manure crops. Tell her to not expect very much in the first year and even
if the veg she grows are pathetic, it will get better with each succeeding
year.

Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and
soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil,
with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they
manage will cost an eye-watering amount ...



--
Klara, Gatwick basin

If the clay is that bad you cannot grow in it ,maybe you would be better off
digging the clay over,put deep raised beds over and fill with a good top
soil,then every year put a thick mulch on top and let it work in before you
start planting.The other option is to go for it on improving your clay with
organic matter,ie compost,manure and grit.Sharp sand maybe to fine be
careful what sand you buy if you go for the sand option.One thing you did
not mention was the size of plot we are talking about?
Cheers Keith
Nottingham

"Klara" wrote in message
...
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Klara writes:
|
| Our daughter is trying to start a veg patch on clay at her new house
| near Godalming, and she needs to buy quite a large quantity of sharp
| sand. I have only ever bought a small bag at a time: where would be
the
| best (cheapest!) place to get larger quantities? She asks:

That is likely to be a near-complete waste of time and money. In order
to make a significant difference, she will need at least a ton for
every ten square yards, and probably more. And that will raise the
soil level correspondingly.

Up to a few tons, the answer is builders' merchants by the bag (and
that is a BIG bag). Beyond that, from a quarry or builders' merchant
supplier by the lorry-load. It MUST be specified as sharp sand.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Thanks, Nick,

I should have said that the thought is to dig in some sand, then build
raised beds on top of that, presumably consisting of cardboard, then
straw with rotted horse manure, and topsoil on top of that, in the hope
that in time it will all wander down and improve the soil proper.

maybe just build the beds over the top a little higher than originally
planned. After a few years the clay at the bottom may be improved. That
seems far easier.

rob

Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and
soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil,
with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they
manage will cost an eye-watering amount ...



--
Klara, Gatwick basin

If the clay is that bad you cannot grow in it ,maybe you would be better off
digging the clay over,put deep raised beds over and fill with a good top
soil,then every year put a thick mulch on top and let it work in before you
start planting.The other option is to go for it on improving your clay with
organic matter,ie compost,manure and grit.Sharp sand maybe to fine be
careful what sand you buy if you go for the sand option.One thing you did
not mention was the size of plot we are talking about?
Cheers Keith
Nottingham

The clay isn't solid, it would probably be possible to dig it and plant
in it, but they want to start improving it as much as possible straight
away. The whole eventual area must be about 5m x 15m, but they are
planning to start with just two raised beds maybe 1m x 3m and gradually
work their way over the garden. (Like everybody else, work and commute
takes too many hours, so it's weekends only.)

Are we overestimating the quantity of sand they need at this stage?

--
Klara, Gatwick basin

On Apr 13, 8:55 am, Klara wrote:
Thanks - as I said to Nick, the idea is raised beds on top of the sand and
soil, with all that you mention incorporated below a layer of topsoil,
with an eye to the long plan. In the first year I imagine each veg they
manage will cost an eye-watering amount ...

Not if they just grow spuds and other tough crops to start breaking up
the ground for this year. The soil has to be solid brickworks clay
before they will fail to make a decent crop. Various fruit bushes and
rhubarb will grow OK in heavy clay so only improve the soil where you
want to grow tricky things needing good drainage.

Clay soils are actually very fertile - just a bit inclined to be too
wet in winter and rock hard in summer.

If the clay is that bad you cannot grow in it ,maybe you would be better off
digging the clay over,put deep raised beds over and fill with a good top
soil,then every year put a thick mulch on top and let it work in before you
start planting.The other option is to go for it on improving your clay with
organic matter,ie compost,manure and grit.Sharp sand maybe to fine be
careful what sand you buy if you go for the sand option.One thing you did
not mention was the size of plot we are talking about?
Cheers Keith
Nottingham

The clay isn't solid, it would probably be possible to dig it and plant
in it, but they want to start improving it as much as possible straight
away. The whole eventual area must be about 5m x 15m, but they are
planning to start with just two raised beds maybe 1m x 3m and gradually
work their way over the garden. (Like everybody else, work and commute
takes too many hours, so it's weekends only.)

Are we overestimating the quantity of sand they need at this stage?

If you are determined to do it this way then try a 1T bag of sharp
sand and work it in. But if you obtained the same amount of spent
mushroom compost or well rotted compost the worms would mix it in for
you.

Like Nick I reckon adding sand to clay soils is vastly overrated. And
proprietory clay flocculators are a total waste of time. You would do
far better adding some organic bulk to the top as a mulch. So much
better if you have a compost heap for all your own grass cuttings and/
or can buy in cheap council well rotted recycled green waste.

If the clay isn't solid I would be tempted to grow the crops that will
tolerate such conditions until the soil improves rather than spend a
lit of time and money on it up front. That has always been my
solution. YMMV.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In message , George.com
writes
maybe just build the beds over the top a little higher than originally
planned. After a few years the clay at the bottom may be improved. That
seems far easier.

rob

Thanks, Rob, have passed the message on ... maybe we were all making a
bit too much of the problem!

--
Klara, Gatwick basin

In message .com,
Martin Brown writes
If the clay isn't solid I would be tempted to grow the crops that will
tolerate such conditions until the soil improves rather than spend a
lit of time and money on it up front. That has always been my solution.
YMMV.

Thanks, Martin, I have passed the message on! I expect it will be
greeted with delight as the problem of the sand was becoming quite a
bugbear!


--
Klara, Gatwick basin