Hi Everyone

At this time of year, there are many plants in my vegetable patch with seeds
I could harvest. As I understand it, some plants breed true from seed, so if
I harvest seeds from those plants and sow them next year, I should end up
with something similar to what I had this year. On the other hand, some
plants don't breed true, and I'd be much better off buying new packets of
seeds for next year.

Are there any rules of thumb for which types of vegetables breed true? Or
are there any lists out there somewhere of the best plants for harvesting
seeds?

All suggestions gratefully received.

Many thanks
Adam

In article ,
"Adam" writes:
|
| Are there any rules of thumb for which types of vegetables breed true? Or
| are there any lists out there somewhere of the best plants for harvesting
| seeds?

The closer to the wild form, the more likely. F1 hybrids almost never
will, most herbs almost always will.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
"Adam" writes:
|
| Are there any rules of thumb for which types of vegetables breed true? Or
| are there any lists out there somewhere of the best plants for harvesting
| seeds?

The closer to the wild form, the more likely. F1 hybrids almost never
will, most herbs almost always will.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

But if all you want is a carrot does it matter if the F1 variety does not
come true? you will still get carrots, you may even get as good a crop.
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

In article ,
Charlie Pridham writes:
|
| But if all you want is a carrot does it matter if the F1 variety does not
| come true? you will still get carrots, you may even get as good a crop.

I grew four varieties of carrot this year - two 'heritage' and two
F1 hybrid. One of the heritage ones was a complete and total failure
(with two sowings), as it bolted before it formed a root. The other
was nearly as bad. The hybrid were fine, except nowhere near as fly
resistant as such varieties usually are.

Now, will the ones grown from F1 hybrid seed be nearly as good as
the parents, or will they revert to characteristics that make them
useless? Well, that will depend on many things. I agree that it is
worth experimenting with seed from even F1 hybrids, but it may well
be a complete failure.

And that assumes you haven't been Monstantoed - which SHOULDN'T be
possible in the UK yet, at least while the EU holds the fort, but I
don't trust those b*gg*rs in Whitehall not to have let such stuff
through on the QT.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Now, will the ones grown from F1 hybrid seed be nearly as good as
the parents, or will they revert to characteristics that make them
useless?

The other issue is cross-pollination. Some plants cross readily with
anything in the area, others are more chaste, practicing
self-fertilization.

Beans only need a little separation to avoid crossing.

Do you have the common weed "Queen Ann's Lace" there? It's really wild
carrot, and that's what your carrots will revert to, given half a chance.

Suzanne Ashworth's "Seed to Seed" has everything you might want to know and
more.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

In article ,
Gary Woods writes:
|
| Do you have the common weed "Queen Ann's Lace" there? It's really wild
| carrot, and that's what your carrots will revert to, given half a chance.

Not in the UK, it won't :-) From the OED:

Queen Anne's lace, a popular name for various umbelliferous plants
bearing clusters of small white flowers, esp., in North America,
the wild carrot, Daucus carota, and in Britain, cow parsley,
Anthriscus sylvestris.

But, yes, we have what you call Queen Anne's Lace! And what we do.
And you are quite right that it will revert to the former.

| Suzanne Ashworth's "Seed to Seed" has everything you might want to know and
| more.

I doubt it :-) When I want to know something, a lot of the time I find
that it isn't even known by the bleeding-edge researchers ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Charlie
Pridham writes
In article ,
says...

In article ,
"Adam" writes:
|
| Are there any rules of thumb for which types of vegetables breed true? Or
| are there any lists out there somewhere of the best plants for harvesting
| seeds?

The closer to the wild form, the more likely. F1 hybrids almost never
will, most herbs almost always will.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

But if all you want is a carrot does it matter if the F1 variety does not
come true? you will still get carrots, you may even get as good a crop.

F1 in commercial seed production has a slightly different meaning than
in genetics.

In genetics the F1 (1st filial) generation is the plants raised from the
original cross, and is generally intermediate between the parents, but
many traits may favour one parent or another, and a few traits may be
outside the range of the parents. Seed collected from the F1 generation
gives rise to the F2 (2nd filial) generation, which can (if diploid)
show anything from one parent to the other. (Polyploid F2 generations
tend to be more similar to the F1 generation.)

The definition of F1 commercial seed has an additional criterion - that
the cross is between two inbred homozygous strains. This has a number of
implications. Firstly the F1 generation will be more uniform than seed
from an open pollinated strain. Secondly there will be a proportionally
greater increase in heterosis (hybrid vigour) compared to the parent
strains. This means that a loss of vigour and of desirable
characteristics is likely when you sow seed collected from F1 hybrid
plants, which is not the case when sowing seed from an open pollinated
strain. Without rogueing an open pollinated strain is likely to revert
towards wild-type over time, but this is a relatively slow process
resulting from the greater fitness of plants with more wild-type
characters. Cross pollination will accelerate this, as different strains
will be homozygous for non-wild-type alleles at different loci, and
cross pollination introduces wild-type alleles into a population that
lacks them, short-circuiting the need for a back mutation.

Bottom line - you're less likely to get a good result with seed
collection from F1 hybrid plants.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Charlie Pridham writes:
|
| But if all you want is a carrot does it matter if the F1 variety does
not
| come true? you will still get carrots, you may even get as good a crop.

I grew four varieties of carrot this year - two 'heritage' and two
F1 hybrid. One of the heritage ones was a complete and total failure
(with two sowings), as it bolted before it formed a root. The other
was nearly as bad. The hybrid were fine, except nowhere near as fly
resistant as such varieties usually are.

Now, will the ones grown from F1 hybrid seed be nearly as good as
the parents, or will they revert to characteristics that make them
useless? Well, that will depend on many things. I agree that it is
worth experimenting with seed from even F1 hybrids, but it may well
be a complete failure.

We await the result of your trials with interest!

"Gary Woods" wrote in message
...
(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Now, will the ones grown from F1 hybrid seed be nearly as good as
the parents, or will they revert to characteristics that make them
useless?

The other issue is cross-pollination. Some plants cross readily with
anything in the area, others are more chaste, practicing
self-fertilization.

Beans only need a little separation to avoid crossing.

Runner beans need at least 100 yards to reduce crosspolination

Many thanks for all the helpful replies, everyone. Sounds like I could have
fun experimenting with collected seeds, but that I run the risk of getting
something rather poor, especially if the original variety was an F1 hybrid.
I shall leave the experimentation until I'm retired and have more time for
it: at the moment I'm more interested in getting reliably good results.

So I shall certainly avoid seeds from any F1 hybrids, but perhaps will give
one or two other things a go.

Thanks again
Adam

"Adam" wrote:

Sounds like I could have
fun experimenting with collected seeds, but that I run the risk of getting
something rather poor, especially if the original variety was an F1 hybrid.

I'm sure you have heirloom seed groups in the U.K who can connect you with
sources. Often the criteria for the home garden are not at all what's
needed for commercial growers. You probably don't care if a lettuce ships
well, for instance...

Enjoy!


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G