On 12/1/08 17:17, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Eddy" wrote ((SNIP))
This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

That is why I put OT in the subject line. However poppies are flowers (or
weeds). :-)

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)


You berate the young and middle aged for not understanding about Remembrance
Day and yet also tell us you were a Teacher for years.

snip


I suppose, to be fair, that teachers have to follow a curriculum. Are they
allowed - or were they - to go off onto their own chosen path of interest?
That's a genuine question - I know they have to toe a party line now but I
don't know if someone who has been teaching for 60 years would have been
able to choose topics about which they, personally, were passionate.
But I'm in accord with you, Bob, about the teaching, or lack of it, that
children get now with regard to history. If you don't learn from history,
you learn nothing and IMO, every single child in every single country in the
world should be taken to see the sites of war graves or e.g. Auschwitz so
that they learn what man can do to man if *they* don't put a stop to it in
each successive generation.
Eddy mentions the Channel Islands where my parents, grandparents, aunts and
uncles, were living under Nazi rule. They - and we - are lucky that rule
didn't prevail because from them I learned enough about how bad it was while
it lasted.
In our Parish magazine there was a short piece about young people in the sea
cadets collecting money during the Poppy Appeal in Totnes. Some equally
young drop out type came up to one young girl and told her she was
supporting 'murdering scum'. I do so wish I'd been there. I wonder if he
realises what would have happened to him if he'd said that to someone
collecting money for the Nazi party, from which fate he was saved by what
his ignorance describes as 'murdering scum'.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha wrote:
I suppose, to be fair, that teachers have to follow a curriculum. Are they
allowed - or were they - to go off onto their own chosen path of interest?

Up until about 1988 it was easier for teachers to divert or involve
other facets, however, even then, it took strength of character to speak
of the heroism of those who fought and lived through the war for there
was that other powerful stricture about: peer-pressure amongst teachers
and from the sixties onwards it has been fashionable, hasn't it, to
avoid any acclamation of war efforts.

If you don't learn from history,
you learn nothing and IMO, every single child in every single country in the
world should be taken to see the sites of war graves or e.g. Auschwitz so
that they learn what man can do to man if *they* don't put a stop to it in
each successive generation.

Absolutely, Sacha.

Eddy mentions the Channel Islands where my parents, grandparents, aunts and
uncles, were living under Nazi rule. They - and we - are lucky that rule
didn't prevail because from them I learned enough about how bad it was while
it lasted.

Fascinating. My grandparents and uncle endured two years in the Channel
Islands under the Nazis, losing their farm and spending those two years
cooped in a rented room in town. They watched as the Germans closed
down the businesses of Jewish residents and rounded them up. And then
in 1942 Hitler ordered my grandparents and uncle, and all other
English-born residents, to be imprisoned in southern Germany. The toll
that those three years of "internment" took on my grandparents destroyed
them mentally. (And by the way, no compensation has ever been paid to
those particular prisoners, as it has to Japanese POWs for example, and,
also, there has never been any enquiry into the degree to which Channel
Island authorities collaborated with the Nazis for the five years of the
occupation. I believe that to this day certain papers have never been
declassified.)

In our Parish magazine there was a short piece about young people in the sea
cadets collecting money during the Poppy Appeal in Totnes. Some equally
young drop out type came up to one young girl and told her she was
supporting 'murdering scum'. I do so wish I'd been there. I wonder if he
realises what would have happened to him if he'd said that to someone
collecting money for the Nazi party, from which fate he was saved by what
his ignorance describes as 'murdering scum'.

I think this one example you give, Sacha, states the situation
perfectly. That "young drop-out type" and thousands of other
non-drop-out types too would continue in the same attitude while lapping
up an extra public holiday.

Eddy.

On 13/1/08 11:25, in article ,
"Eddy" wrote:

snip

Fascinating. My grandparents and uncle endured two years in the Channel
Islands under the Nazis, losing their farm and spending those two years
cooped in a rented room in town. They watched as the Germans closed
down the businesses of Jewish residents and rounded them up. And then
in 1942 Hitler ordered my grandparents and uncle, and all other
English-born residents, to be imprisoned in southern Germany. The toll
that those three years of "internment" took on my grandparents destroyed
them mentally. (And by the way, no compensation has ever been paid to
those particular prisoners, as it has to Japanese POWs for example, and,
also, there has never been any enquiry into the degree to which Channel
Island authorities collaborated with the Nazis for the five years of the
occupation. I believe that to this day certain papers have never been
declassified.)

There has long been controversy over the part the authorities played in this
but reading A Doctor's Occupation by Dr John Lewis seems to me to indicate
that everything was done that could be to prevent deportation. Of course,
we have to remember in modern times that nobody at that time knew the fate
of Jews under the Hitler regime.
My own family was expecting to be sent to an internment camp because all
they have a Jersey name, Le seelleur, my grandfather, grandmother, mother
and aunt were born in England. My father's family, the Valpys, were all
born in Jersey and my great-grandfather Le Seelleur and all preceding
generations were but the deportation of the English born was some sort of
reprisal for actions by the British in a war my family wasn't free to fight
in!
If you feel you'd like to Eddy, do email me and tell me about your family
and which island they were in - not Alderney, I hope! Remove the 'weeds'
from my address for email.


In our Parish magazine there was a short piece about young people in the sea
cadets collecting money during the Poppy Appeal in Totnes. Some equally
young drop out type came up to one young girl and told her she was
supporting 'murdering scum'. I do so wish I'd been there. I wonder if he
realises what would have happened to him if he'd said that to someone
collecting money for the Nazi party, from which fate he was saved by what
his ignorance describes as 'murdering scum'.

I think this one example you give, Sacha, states the situation
perfectly. That "young drop-out type" and thousands of other
non-drop-out types too would continue in the same attitude while lapping
up an extra public holiday.

Eddy.


Very probably but if we don't do *something*, it will all be consigned to
the dustbin of history that remains untaught. I am sure that not everybody
who takes Christmas Day as a holiday, goes to church but we still celebrate
Christmas.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha wrote:
If you feel you'd like to Eddy, do email me and tell me about your family
and which island they were in - not Alderney, I hope! Remove the 'weeds'
from my address for email.

Thanks, Sacha. That's really kind. The truth is that the whole episode
is riven with pain. My parents went to an extraordinary length to
forget what the internment did to my grandparents & uncle but their
effort at suppression ultimately failed, and tragically. At the same
time, my father who amazingly survived five years flying in Bomber
Command, suffered horrific flashbacks & memories until he died. It's
all awful. I have looked into it all in depth only recently and a
little while ago saw that for my own happiness I needed to put it
largely aside, though never entirely of course.

You could say that this attitude is part of the problem why the young
don't care or know about what happened. Even we, the children, of those
who were directly involved, find it too painful to constantly remember!

Best Wishes,
Eddy.

On 14/1/08 10:02, in article ,
"Eddy" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
If you feel you'd like to Eddy, do email me and tell me about your family
and which island they were in - not Alderney, I hope! Remove the 'weeds'
from my address for email.

Thanks, Sacha. That's really kind. The truth is that the whole episode
is riven with pain. My parents went to an extraordinary length to
forget what the internment did to my grandparents & uncle but their
effort at suppression ultimately failed, and tragically. At the same
time, my father who amazingly survived five years flying in Bomber
Command, suffered horrific flashbacks & memories until he died. It's
all awful. I have looked into it all in depth only recently and a
little while ago saw that for my own happiness I needed to put it
largely aside, though never entirely of course.

You could say that this attitude is part of the problem why the young
don't care or know about what happened. Even we, the children, of those
who were directly involved, find it too painful to constantly remember!

Best Wishes,
Eddy.


It sounds truly appalling and I am so sorry to hear that your family
suffered such tragedy. Mine, by comparison, came through it unscathed but
with strong memories of what it was to live under enemy rule and to be cut
off from the mainland in every sense of that phrase. My grandfather, who
was Rector of one of the parishes had one of the illegal wireless sets, so
they got some English news from time to time but of course, lived in fear
always, of being discovered. Unlike many who became very frugal with food,
my mother became a major 'over caterer' and swears it's because of their
near starvation during the Occupation. None of my family was, thank
heaven, interned but one of my mother's friends was the only British
survivor of Belsen and his sister died in Auschwitz. They were sent there
for harbouring a young Russian prisoner of war who had escaped. All this
ended only 60 or so years ago and it slips so quickly from public knowledge
and its dreadful implications are forgotten.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha wrote:
It sounds truly appalling and I am so sorry to hear that your family
suffered such tragedy. Mine, by comparison, came through it unscathed but
with strong memories of what it was to live under enemy rule and to be cut
off from the mainland in every sense of that phrase. My grandfather, who
was Rector of one of the parishes had one of the illegal wireless sets, so
they got some English news from time to time but of course, lived in fear
always, of being discovered. Unlike many who became very frugal with food,
my mother became a major 'over caterer' and swears it's because of their
near starvation during the Occupation. None of my family was, thank
heaven, interned but one of my mother's friends was the only British
survivor of Belsen and his sister died in Auschwitz. They were sent there
for harbouring a young Russian prisoner of war who had escaped. All this
ended only 60 or so years ago and it slips so quickly from public knowledge
and its dreadful implications are forgotten.

Sacha,

Very good to hear all this from you. Thanks.

I've read a couple of books in the last year about the occupation of the
Channel Islands. Some are much better than others. I have sensed a
need amongst Channel Islanders today to put a good face on it all. So
it's all very difficult to piece together. There are photographs for
example of begging letters from Jewish shopkeepers to the island
authorities who have requested them (as a result of Nazi pressure) to
shut up shop, there are photographs of soldiers holding a decapitated
animals (including cats!) up for the camera prior to cooking them, there
are sketches and photos too of the bleak camps the POWs were kept in
Germany. And, as you say, there are accounts of the hidden radio-sets
amongst the folk in Jersey and various attempts at sabotage and
outwitting the Nazis. And today there are exchange schemes between the
islands and the towns in Germany where the camps were, mostly for the
benefit of school-age youngsters I note. Both sides today are being
very jolly about it, being very proud of the positive gains they are
making as a result of "the reconciliation and healing process". And I
have sensed the last thing they want are people (like me) emerging out
of the woodwork all these years later to tell them of the catastrophic
effect it all had on unforgotten people's lives. My grandparents were
both 58 years old when they were transported off to the POW camp in
Germany to be incarcerated behind barbed wire for three years. I gather
that the young ones, the teenagers, who went with the adults managed it
all fairly well. Young people are so much more adaptable. I have
corresponded with a couple of old chaps who are still alive today and I
have got the impression they remember it all with a touch of relish. It
was all rather exciting for them, as boys. I expect that their parents
shielded them from concerns that they might never be released, that the
Nazis might not be beaten, that RAF bombers might accidentally bomb them
one night, and so forth. I find myself about to say, "It must have been
hell!" but because of what I discovered happened to my grandparents and
uncle once they were returned to the UK after their camp was liberated I
KNOW it was hell for them. People's lives wrecked forever after. They
weren't soldiers, they didn't lose limbs, but psychologically they were
wrecked.

Anyway . . .

Eddy.

On 14/1/08 20:51, in article ,
"Eddy" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
It sounds truly appalling and I am so sorry to hear that your family
suffered such tragedy. Mine, by comparison, came through it unscathed but
with strong memories of what it was to live under enemy rule and to be cut
off from the mainland in every sense of that phrase. My grandfather, who
was Rector of one of the parishes had one of the illegal wireless sets, so
they got some English news from time to time but of course, lived in fear
always, of being discovered. Unlike many who became very frugal with food,
my mother became a major 'over caterer' and swears it's because of their
near starvation during the Occupation. None of my family was, thank
heaven, interned but one of my mother's friends was the only British
survivor of Belsen and his sister died in Auschwitz. They were sent there
for harbouring a young Russian prisoner of war who had escaped. All this
ended only 60 or so years ago and it slips so quickly from public knowledge
and its dreadful implications are forgotten.

Sacha,

Very good to hear all this from you. Thanks.

I've read a couple of books in the last year about the occupation of the
Channel Islands. Some are much better than others. I have sensed a
need amongst Channel Islanders today to put a good face on it all. So
it's all very difficult to piece together.

There aren't that many around who remember it clearly. My mother is nearly
90 so hers is first-hand experience but she's in a dwindling minority. Most
who remember it now, remember it either as children themselves or from what
their parents told them. As in all history, the memories will become
diluted, distorted, faded over time.
If you haven't read it, I do recommend A Doctor's Occupation (De Gruchy's in
Jersey sell it as does the Société Jersiaise, I think or I'd be happy to
lend you a copy) I think it's valuable in that it gives a first-hand
accurate account by a professional who had to deal with the Germans, the
local authorities and the people of the island. His descriptions are vivid
and never sentimental. I imagine you know of the books on this site?
http://www.jerseyheritagetrust.org/edu/resources/
snip

When we celebrated 50 years of Liberation, I was my parish's committee
secretary and one of the things we did was to organise talks by people who
had experienced the Occupation and experienced it in different forms. Miss
Le Huquet, who was a young teacher at the parish school in the war, vowed
never to leave the parish boundaries during the Occupation and she never
did. Why that was her choice I don't know but it seemed as if she felt that
if the Germans were going to restrict her she'd impose tougher restrictions
on herself and survive them. She lived beyond 90 years of age. But 50 years
on she still spoke of "those Germans" as if she was uttering a swear word.
Some who talked to us were, as you describe, teenagers at the time or even
younger and to them deportation and internment was a great adventure. Some
were interned in beautiful places with plentiful food and only as adults
became aware that they'd survived rather better than islanders, though not,
of course, from choice!
One of the little ironies of the futility of war came my way in a story told
by my grandfather. Although of Jersey blood, he was born in Co. Durham and
had a slight Geordie accent all his life. One night, during the Occupation,
his blackout wasn't secure and a German soldier knocked on the door to tell
him to fix it. They exchanged a few polite words and before the soldier
moved off he asked my grandfather how he came to have a Geordie accent.
Grandpa explained and asked the soldier how he, a German, recognised it.
The soldier said that before the war he'd been a waiter working in a
restaurant in Newcastle on Tyne.....
And now perhaps after this, we'd better stop, do you think? The email offer
remains open!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 12/1/08 18:29, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:14:50 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 12/1/08 17:17, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Eddy" wrote ((SNIP))
This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

That is why I put OT in the subject line. However poppies are flowers (or
weeds). :-)

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)


You berate the young and middle aged for not understanding about Remembrance
Day and yet also tell us you were a Teacher for years.

snip


I suppose, to be fair, that teachers have to follow a curriculum. Are they
allowed - or were they - to go off onto their own chosen path of interest?
That's a genuine question - I know they have to toe a party line now but I
don't know if someone who has been teaching for 60 years would have been
able to choose topics about which they, personally, were passionate.
But I'm in accord with you, Bob, about the teaching, or lack of it, that
children get now with regard to history.

Schools don;t teach recent history " because it is open to different
interpretations"

50 odd years ago I did O level History 1815-1914

My kids did a bit more, but not WWII and later.

The result is that one used to spend half ones life filling in the gaps. TV
Channels like Discovery make it easier to catch up on wars.

If you don't learn from history,
you learn nothing and IMO, every single child in every single country in the
world should be taken to see the sites of war graves or e.g. Auschwitz so
that they learn what man can do to man if *they* don't put a stop to it in
each successive generation.

Maybe some of those nearer home - The Somme, Normandy, Arnhem ...?

Certainly but those aren't 'nearer home' for every child - and I do, most
truly, mean every child. One of the most moving things I've ever done was
visit the battle fields of Normandy and both the US and German cemeteries
there, closely followed by the memorial at Pearl Harbour.
But until all children, worldwide, learn that war means bullets or bombs and
certain death for thousands, war will not stop. I think it's probably not
in human nature not to fight, actually but I do think that some historical
knowledge might at the very least, stop people fighting over trivial things
in terms of human existence.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 12/1/08 18:40, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:33:42 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 12/1/08 18:29, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:14:50 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 12/1/08 17:17, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Eddy" wrote ((SNIP))
This is off-topic but as other replies appear to have been allowed I
would like to add my view.

That is why I put OT in the subject line. However poppies are flowers (or
weeds). :-)

I used to be a teacher at a good number of schools (primary and
secondary) and universities, until a few years ago and I was, and am
still, appalled at how most young people have little knowledge of and
regard for the extraordinary sacrifice that was made for the freedom
from Nazi domination which we all enjoy today. (Let's not forget the
Nazis dominated Europe and got as far as invading and occupying our
Channel Islands and it is a miracle we managed to beat them back!)


You berate the young and middle aged for not understanding about
Remembrance
Day and yet also tell us you were a Teacher for years.

snip


I suppose, to be fair, that teachers have to follow a curriculum. Are
they
allowed - or were they - to go off onto their own chosen path of interest?
That's a genuine question - I know they have to toe a party line now but I
don't know if someone who has been teaching for 60 years would have been
able to choose topics about which they, personally, were passionate.
But I'm in accord with you, Bob, about the teaching, or lack of it, that
children get now with regard to history.

Schools don;t teach recent history " because it is open to different
interpretations"

50 odd years ago I did O level History 1815-1914

My kids did a bit more, but not WWII and later.

The result is that one used to spend half ones life filling in the gaps. TV
Channels like Discovery make it easier to catch up on wars.

If you don't learn from history,
you learn nothing and IMO, every single child in every single country in
the
world should be taken to see the sites of war graves or e.g. Auschwitz so
that they learn what man can do to man if *they* don't put a stop to it in
each successive generation.

Maybe some of those nearer home - The Somme, Normandy, Arnhem ...?

Certainly but those aren't 'nearer home' for every child - and I do, most
truly, mean every child. One of the most moving things I've ever done was
visit the battle fields of Normandy and both the US and German cemeteries
there, closely followed by the memorial at Pearl Harbour.

They have more chance of identifying with hundreds of thousands of British war
dead, than Auschwitz.

I've visited Dachau, but it was the war grave cemeteries at Anzio that shocked
me most.

But those would not - perhaps - affect children from the Far and Middle East
as much as children from Europe. All countries have their memories of
horror, sadly.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

In article ,
Martin writes:
|
| Schools don;t teach recent history " because it is open to different
| interpretations"

That is not true. Both of my daughters did the second world war,
including references to the Holocaust.

There is also the distasteful fact that, for the past quarter of
a century, Remembrance Sunday has been used by politicians as an
opportunity for jingoism and as a way of claiming that they care
about dead and crippled troops without actually doing anything for
them. The original offender was, of course, you-know-who.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
Both of my daughters did the second world war,
including references to the Holocaust.

They were lucky then, Nick, in the person who was their teacher.

There are some schools where a teacher may declare in the staff room
that he or she is about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust,
etc., WITHOUT getting black looks from fellow teachers. I'll leave it
to you to consider what kind of schools they are and where those schools
might be situated. But I will give you a clue: they are highly unlikely
to be state schools in large urban areas!

Eddy.

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|
| They were lucky then, Nick, in the person who was their teacher.

Look at my Email address :-)

| There are some schools where a teacher may declare in the staff room
| that he or she is about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust,
| etc., WITHOUT getting black looks from fellow teachers. I'll leave it
| to you to consider what kind of schools they are and where those schools
| might be situated. But I will give you a clue: they are highly unlikely
| to be state schools in large urban areas!

The Cambridge area and, I believe, much of Scotland, are exceptions.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|
| They were lucky then, Nick, in the person who was their teacher.

Look at my Email address :-)

| There are some schools where a teacher may declare in the staff room
| that he or she is about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust,
| etc., WITHOUT getting black looks from fellow teachers. I'll leave it
| to you to consider what kind of schools they are and where those schools
| might be situated. But I will give you a clue: they are highly unlikely
| to be state schools in large urban areas!

The Cambridge area and, I believe, much of Scotland, are exceptions.

I have difficulty understanding why

1) being about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust should be
so noteworthy as to be worthy of being declared in the staff room.

2) why doing so should be the occasion of being the recipient of black
looks.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
I have difficulty understanding why
1) being about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust should be
so noteworthy as to be worthy of being declared in the staff room.
2) why doing so should be the occasion of being the recipient of black
looks.

It's because "anything to do with guns and war and killing" is simply
wrong, Stewart! Guns, and war, and killing is thought to equate to
patriotism, nationalism, jingoism - and these things too equate to each
other and are also thought to be just as wrong!

I believe the attitude stems from fashion, ignorance, fear, and
irresponsibility.

Eddy.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:59:24 +0000, Eddy wrote
(in article ):

Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
I have difficulty understanding why
1) being about to teach about the world wars and the Holocaust should be
so noteworthy as to be worthy of being declared in the staff room.
2) why doing so should be the occasion of being the recipient of black
looks.

It's because "anything to do with guns and war and killing" is simply
wrong, Stewart! Guns, and war, and killing is thought to equate to
patriotism, nationalism, jingoism - and these things too equate to each
other and are also thought to be just as wrong!

I believe the attitude stems from fashion, ignorance, fear, and
irresponsibility.

Eddy.


I should point out that as I understand it (check with the BBC if you don't
believe me) in England, teaching children about the Holocaust is
_/compulsory/, and it is not banned elsewhere in the UK.


--
Sally in Shropshire, UK
Burne-Jones/William Morris window in Shropshire church with conservation
churchyard:
http://www.whitton-stmarys.org.uk