On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:21:07 -0000, "'Mike'"
wrote:




"Fuschia" wrote in message
.. .

I am very much in favour of Remembrance for the fallen.
However it seems to me from the commercial support for the petition
that this is being used as an excuse, a label, for just another public
holiday. It will be used as an excuse for various commercial,
consumer-oriented activities that have nothing to do with Remembrance.

Christmas and Easter are bank holidays because they are religious
festivals, but only a minority use them to go to church. The majority
use them as an opportunity for parties. If we have a Remembrance day
off work, I believe the majority will also use that for parties. Is
that what we want?



Well said. That is why I will not sign the petition

Mike

I am old enough to remember Armistice Day observance in the late 1930s
and early 40s because my father had been wounded in the first world
war and felt deeply about Armistice Day.
It always happened on 11 Nov at 11 am and that fixed time was its
great strength. It was the way that virtually everything stopped for
those two minutes which made a huge impression - there were parades
and services but it was the almost universal observance of the 2
minutes silence no matter what was otherwise happening that mattered
most. Shops stopped, cars stopped, even buses, but not trains
although a station departure would be delayed.
Turn that into a day off and nobody will observe that crucial two
minutes silence.
Just to touch on another part of this thread, the Remembrance Day
service at the war memorial in my small town has been attended by
increasing numbers in recent years and all ages are present.

Guy Gorton

Guy Gorton wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:21:07 -0000, "'Mike'"
wrote:




"Fuschia" wrote in message
...

I am very much in favour of Remembrance for the fallen.
However it seems to me from the commercial support for the petition
that this is being used as an excuse, a label, for just another
public holiday. It will be used as an excuse for various commercial,
consumer-oriented activities that have nothing to do with
Remembrance.

Christmas and Easter are bank holidays because they are religious
festivals, but only a minority use them to go to church. The
majority use them as an opportunity for parties. If we have a
Remembrance day off work, I believe the majority will also use that
for parties. Is that what we want?



Well said. That is why I will not sign the petition

Mike

I am old enough to remember Armistice Day observance in the late 1930s
and early 40s because my father had been wounded in the first world
war and felt deeply about Armistice Day.
It always happened on 11 Nov at 11 am and that fixed time was its
great strength. It was the way that virtually everything stopped for
those two minutes which made a huge impression - there were parades
and services but it was the almost universal observance of the 2
minutes silence no matter what was otherwise happening that mattered
most. Shops stopped, cars stopped, even buses, but not trains
although a station departure would be delayed.
Turn that into a day off and nobody will observe that crucial two
minutes silence.
Just to touch on another part of this thread, the Remembrance Day
service at the war memorial in my small town has been attended by
increasing numbers in recent years and all ages are present.

My eyes were opened by reading this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Neil.../dp/038560453X

The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's humbled me.

The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's humbled
me.


Possibly because of this?

(Part of one of my lectures)


..July 1st 1916
..First day of the Battle of the Somme.
..57,470 casualties.
..19,240 dead.

..'Just pour more men in'
..885,138 Military Deaths in WW1(All Services)

Kind regard

Mike

--
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly

'Mike' wrote:
The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's
humbled me.


Possibly because of this?

(Part of one of my lectures)


.July 1st 1916
.First day of the Battle of the Somme.
.57,470 casualties.
.19,240 dead.

.'Just pour more men in'
.885,138 Military Deaths in WW1(All Services)

Kind regard

Mike

I had a pretty good grasp of the battlefield casualties - what was humbling
was the concept of national remembrance and the idea of the unknown
soldier....

Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the Tomb of
the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families visiting the
battlefields for many years attempting to discover where their
Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary plaster Cenotaph
being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected focus of remembrance for
years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.

On 15/1/08 11:20, in article , "cupra"
wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the Tomb of
the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families visiting the
battlefields for many years attempting to discover where their
Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary plaster Cenotaph
being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected focus of remembrance for
years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That should
be part of every child's education. We didn't see one headstone which gave
an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The American one was vast
because all were buried together but the British tended to be buried in the
churchyards nearest to where they had fallen, so the military cemetery in
Caen is nowhere as large as the US one. But the first time I visited the US
one, I was taken also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me
very much was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and
in the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a grave.
My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to such a point
that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting hay. The British War
Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to clean it up and maintain it, on
the grounds that even if defeated, their men had given their lives, too.
Now it is immaculate and when I saw it there was a fairly newly planted
avenue of trees leading up to it.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

Sacha wrote:
On 15/1/08 11:20, in article ,
"cupra" wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families
visiting the battlefields for many years attempting to discover
where their Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary
plaster Cenotaph being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected
focus of remembrance for years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That
should be part of every child's education.

Absolutely - a visit to the WW1 graves too (something I plan to do soon).

We didn't see one
headstone which gave an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The
American one was vast because all were buried together but the
British tended to be buried in the churchyards nearest to where they
had fallen, so the military cemetery in Caen is nowhere as large as
the US one. But the first time I visited the US one, I was taken
also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me very much
was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and in
the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a
grave. My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to
such a point that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting
hay. The British War Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to
clean it up and maintain it, on the grounds that even if defeated,
their men had given their lives, too. Now it is immaculate and when I
saw it there was a fairly newly planted avenue of trees leading up to
it.

" cupra" wrote in message
...
Sacha wrote:
On 15/1/08 11:20, in article ,
"cupra" wrote:

snip
Tens of thousands of Mothers queuing for hours on end to pass the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as it 'could be' their son, families
visiting the battlefields for many years attempting to discover
where their Son/Brother/Father may have been buried, the temporary
plaster Cenotaph being replaced by stone as it became an unexpected
focus of remembrance for years past it's due. And so on....

As I say, a book I'd wholeheartedly recommend.



It's profoundly moving to visit the war cemeteries in Normandy. That
should be part of every child's education.

Absolutely - a visit to the WW1 graves too (something I plan to do soon).

We didn't see one
headstone which gave an age older than 36 and mNY were 18 or so. The
American one was vast because all were buried together but the
British tended to be buried in the churchyards nearest to where they
had fallen, so the military cemetery in Caen is nowhere as large as
the US one. But the first time I visited the US one, I was taken
also to the very sombre German cemetery. What struck me very much
was that at the US cemetery, there had been dozens of visitors and in
the German one, I saw a solitary figure weeping bitterly over a
grave. My hosts told me that the Germans had let the cemetery go to
such a point that local farmers were grazing cows in it and cutting
hay. The British War Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to
clean it up and maintain it, on the grounds that even if defeated,
their men had given their lives, too. Now it is immaculate and when I
saw it there was a fairly newly planted avenue of trees leading up to
it.

As, I'm here asking about Japonicas, I thought you might be interested in a
war memorial that moved me.

I wen't home and wrote about it
http://www.go-self-sufficient.com/lestweforget.htm

Regards
Pat Gardiner

In article ,
says...
The British War
Graves Commission encouraged the Germans to clean it up and maintain it, on
the grounds that even if defeated, their men had given their lives, too.
Now it is immaculate and when I saw it there was a fairly newly planted
avenue of trees leading up to it.


My history teacher (a german jewish refugee) when covering the two main
wars came out with "There are no winners only losers, sometimes one side
loses more than the other, never forget, then you will not make the
mistakes we did"
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

On 15 Jan, 10:08, " cupra" wrote:
My eyes were opened by reading this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Neil.../dp/038560453X
The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's humbled me.

Strangely the Guardian week end gave a couple of articles on this
topic, the first which moved me so much I circulated it in my
household and the second, The hardest night of their life, the last
mission of a troup of soldiers in Afganistan last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...238507,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...238511,00.html

wrote:
On 15 Jan, 10:08, " cupra" wrote:
My eyes were opened by reading this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Neil.../dp/038560453X
The section on national grief and rememberance in the 20's/30's
humbled me.

Strangely the Guardian week end gave a couple of articles on this
topic, the first which moved me so much I circulated it in my
household and the second, The hardest night of their life, the last
mission of a troup of soldiers in Afganistan last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...238507,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...238511,00.html

Both very different, and very sobering, stories.