walking boots-- which are good?
 

Gordon wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now
for 15 years....

Hey ho, Rab's "Downpour" series Ceased To Be a few years ago now.

Rab's waterproofs these days are split between a waterproof flavour of
Pertex ("Shield", for the lightest models) and eVent.

eVent has been tested as quite a bit more breathable than GoreTex, even
the latest Pro-Shell versions. The original Goretex didn't have a PU
smear over the microporous membrane and that led to contamination
problems that caused it to leak. Subsequent versions introduced the PU
smear which substantially reduced the breathability (the original
version lives on in modified form as Windstopper). The eVent folks have
come up with another way of preventing contamination with clever coating
of the internal microporous structure (IIRC) rather than putting a thin
barrier over the front of it so there's less stuff getting in the way of
exiting vapour.
According to accounts I've read it does need keeping clean(ish) to work
properly, but now has a good track record in the Real World and is
widely praised by users as seeming much less clammy than any given
flavour of Goretex.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:14:48 +0000, Geoff Berrow
wrote:

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:46:02 -0500, Michael Black wrote:

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet dry, but
that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through whatever outlets
it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside water, but only if the seams
are all well done and the Gore-Tex well protected (ie another layer to
make you sweat) and as pointed out, so long as the water doesn't come in
over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised my feet
were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact,
perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.

That's one element of possible preference. Another is, as somebody
mentioned, marketing hype.
I don't understand what good the Gore-Tex did your friend's steaming
feet. Seems the Gore-Tex didn't 'wick away" the sweat.
And as somebody mentioned if the Gore-Tex is surrounded by wet
leather, what's the point?
Though I'm not an "extreme" hiker, and not much of hiker at all
compared to some here, I have spent many days on my feet working
outdoors in all sorts of weather, and done many +10 mile hikes..
Any sweating of my feet is readily handled by wearing the correct
socks. If it's a downpour, I seek shelter. Then I hike around
puddles, not through them.
When my work was outside, as it was for years, a light poncho kept me
dry in the rain, save the lower legs, and I wore "pac" boots, which
are waterproof, and have thick felt liners, whenever I had to work in
slush and snow..
Personally, I prefer to wax leather footwear that will see much wet
weather, including morning dew.
My sweat will dampen my socks less than water intrusion.
But waxing naturally means shoes/boots must be aired more often/longer
to keep stink away. It's really nice to have 2 pair of footwear you
like, and rotate.
I've found some shoes get stinky almost no matter what you do to avoid
it, and you just toss them, and don't buy the same again.
Might be a particular synthetic, or the way the leather is treated, or
even the cow it came from.
Or maybe my chemistry doesn't agree with them.
Anyway, I never felt the need for Gore-Tex at all.
But people have their preferences, depending on their experience.
I'm not at all for spending money on hype.
Frankly, I've seen some brand name hype here without much detailed
experience backing it up. And also, no doubt, some who know what
they're talking about. The problem for the OP is separating it.
Could be more costly than necessary in going chic.
BTW, I'm reading the frugal group (-:

--Vic

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:47:55 -0000, Gordon wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now for 15
years....it cost half the price of an equivalently-featured Gore-Tex jacket
back in the early 90's...it's got two horizontal hip pockets with gusset and
poppered flaps, two zipped chest pockets, a hidden zipped map pocket, a hood
with volume adjustment large enough to cover a helmet and a velcro and
poppered front fastening over a double zip and reinforced patches on elbows
and shoulders..

Sounds bombproof! I've an old jacket that's shower-resistant and that's PU
inside nylon, so doesn't transpire too well.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:47:55 -0000, Gordon wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now for
15
years....it cost half the price of an equivalently-featured Gore-Tex
jacket
back in the early 90's...it's got two horizontal hip pockets with gusset
and
poppered flaps, two zipped chest pockets, a hidden zipped map pocket, a
hood
with volume adjustment large enough to cover a helmet and a velcro and
poppered front fastening over a double zip and reinforced patches on
elbows
and shoulders..

Sounds bombproof! I've an old jacket that's shower-resistant and that's PU
inside nylon, so doesn't transpire too well.

Well it's done me good service and is still in pretty good nick. RAB
replaced the velcro on the front free of charge last year (it has a
life-time guarantee) and I wash it with Nickwax TX direct once or twice a
year depending on how much it's been used to re-proof the Pertex.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote:

If you're hiking or walking in wet conditions you want to be certain to
never buy shoes or boots that lack a breathable membrane. GoreTex is
one. In order of breathability, the ratings a

eVent
Gore-Tex XCR
Gore-Tex (standard)
HydroSeal (The North Face)
Membrain (Marmot)
Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear)
OmniTech (Columbia).


Not to kick a dead dog, but I just got back from 10 days trekking around
the Scottish Western Isles (Arran, Islay & Jura): Lots of deep snow,
bogs and rain (fortunately and unusually, relatively little of the latter).

My non-Goretex (or any other membrane) boots kept dry (or at worst very
slightly humid, dry again after a freezing night in tent apse), warm
(almost always) and comfortable. Happy feet! :-)

Instead, my beloved 3-layer eVent jacket had a leak under where the
rucksack shoulder straps sit (not condensation or sweat): So much for
waterproof membranes being eternal or even long-lasting... :-(

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Michael Black wrote:

snip

And your "Pro-Gore-Tex" isn't a religion?

No, it's based on facts. It's like evolution versus creationism.

I'm using "Gore-Tex" loosely though, it could be one of several other
waterproof, breathable membranes. I've had garments with several
different types, and all work pretty much the same. Gore-Tex tends to
work better because they've been refining it for so many decades,
working out the kinks in terms of reliability and longevity.

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex, I'd let the rest of
the design features (and cost) of the garment or footwear determine
which one to choose.

For full grain leather boots you can achieve water-proofing with a
product like Sno-Seal which closes all the pores in the leather, but it
effectively stops any transfer of moisture. For other boots (fabric,
split grain leather, or Nubuck, you definitely want to have some sort of
waterproof breathable membrane if you're going to wear them in wet
weather, expect to step in puddles, etc.

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

Once you find all the boots with the necessary design elements you begin
to narrow down your choices based on other factors like fit, aesthetics,
price, etc..

walking boots-- which are good?
 

"SMS" wrote in message
...

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.



In YOUR obsessive dogmatic opinion. Many people do NOT share your OBSESSIVE
dogmatic opinion.
Interesting how Army boots do NOT have any sort of membrane in them and they
are EXTENSIVELY tested in all sorts of terrain and climatic conditions, and
can be worn 24/7 for days on end...

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote:

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex,

But eVent has been tested as a fair bit more breathable than Goretex,
because they avoid the PU smear over the microporous membrane that
restricts Goretex's breathability.

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

As has been pointed out numerous times, lots of people, some with
/vastly/ more experience than the likes of us, prefer boots with no
liner for wet places. And they don't clog up all the pores with wax either.

As has been pointed out numerous times, some of the top rated boots (by
experts and proles alike) in the UK include the Scarpa SL and Manata.
They've been firm favourites for decades now in their various forms, but
none of those forms has ever had a waterproof lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

As has been pointed out numerous times, there are other alternatives
which work better in particular niches. So you'll find a lot of folk on
serious mud much prefer a more aggressively studded sole like Walsh's or
Inov-8's.

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

As has been pointed out numerous times, you don't need "extreme high
end" boots to go hiking. So it can't be necessary.

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

There's no special need for support, leather is not the only way to give
it, and durability may not be an issue. If you're an occasional hiker,
or can buy two pairs of less durable boots for the same money, it's not
something you /need/.

How long before the stuck record jumps back, I wonder?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Geoff Berrow wrote
Michael Black wrote

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet
dry, but that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through
whatever outlets it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside
water, but only if the seams are all well done and the Gore-Tex well
protected (ie another layer to make you sweat) and as pointed out,
so long as the water doesn't come in over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised
my feet were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact, perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined
boots.

There has to be a reason for that.


Absolutely. And it's not just cost factor either.
They had trouble with trench foot in the Falklands - not because the boots
weren't waterproof but because the water came in over the top, which NO
membrane of any sort will prevent.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Rod Speed wrote:
Geoff Berrow wrote
Michael Black wrote

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet
dry, but that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through
whatever outlets it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside
water, but only if the seams are all well done and the Gore-Tex well
protected (ie another layer to make you sweat) and as pointed out,
so long as the water doesn't come in over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised
my feet were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact, perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.




Probably a lot has to do with use:
If I were going out for a few hours / one day in very wet conditions, a
Gore-tex (or similar) lining would be a great advantage (and has been
for me - assuming it's intact).

Since my "normal" use involves several days/weeks afield, my priority is
a boot which dries as quickly as possible, even if it gets a bit damp at
the end of a day.

Again, use and conditions need to be considered, rather than blindly and
dogmatically proclaiming that one particular solution is the only way....

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote:


1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

Once you find all the boots with the necessary design elements you begin
to narrow down your choices based on other factors like fit, aesthetics,
price, etc..

Your opinion is noted, indeed it is difficult to evade being repeated ad
nauseam without addressing any of the counter arguments. However much
you bang the drum it remains only your opinion, unsupported by evidence
and countered by many people's experience in the real world.


No breathable liner works if the outside is covered with water - it
can't breathe. Guess what happens to boots in even mildly wet conditions.

No breathable liner is robust enough to stand up to the stretching that
occurs as you walk - it tears along the stitching. Then it leaks.

Breathable liners inside leather are a waste of money. They will fail,
but if you proof the boot by the usual methods (Nikwax, castor oil,
dubbin, uncle tom cobbley and all) the liner becomes a problem.

I've had Gore-tex lined boots. They all leaked, after a relatively
short while, well before the sole or uppers showed any signs of wearing out.


(What's this doing on frugal-living? Gore-tex certainly ain't frugal...)

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Geoff Berrow wrote
Michael Black wrote

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet
dry, but that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through
whatever outlets it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside
water, but only if the seams are all well done and the Gore-Tex
well protected (ie another layer to make you sweat) and as pointed
out, so long as the water doesn't come in over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised
my feet were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact, perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is
better, it's what suits the individual best.

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.

Probably a lot has to do with use:

Or more likely goretex is not particularly useful with boots.

If I were going out for a few hours / one day in very wet conditions, a Gore-tex (or similar) lining would be a great
advantage

They clearly disagree.

(and has been for me - assuming it's intact).

Even that is very arguable when most of the problem
with water and boots is the water coming in over the
top and no goretex makes any difference to that.

The military doesnt get around in wellies either.

Since my "normal" use involves several days/weeks afield, my priority is a boot which dries as quickly as possible,
even if it gets a bit damp at the end of a day.

And that is what the military wants too.

Again, use and conditions need to be considered, rather than blindly
and dogmatically proclaiming that one particular solution is the only way....

Yes, but there isnt any real evidence that goretex helps any with boots.

If it did, the military would be using it and they dont.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Rod Speed wrote:

Even that is very arguable when most of the problem
with water and boots is the water coming in over the
top and no goretex makes any difference to that.

The military doesnt get around in wellies either.


I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my
non-Gore-tex or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too long to put my
gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place (being a bit of a
Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually pick up another pair for
short & extremely wet situations. For my normal use, membrane boots make
sense as a third pair (normal heavy, normal light, then membrane).

walking boots-- which are good?
 

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.rec.hiking & uk.rec.walking.]
On 2010-03-08, SMS wrote:
Bill Grey wrote:

I'll try to convert you Gordon - have a look at:-

I doubt if you'll have any success. "Anti-GoreTex" is like a religion.

Really? You're the one proselytizing here. Bill's trying to convert
someone. You're the one with the Four Commandments of Boot Design.
--
Chick Tower

For e-mail: arh DOT sent DOT towerboy AT xoxy DOT net

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Peter Clinch wrote:
SMS wrote:

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex,

But eVent has been tested as a fair bit more breathable than Goretex,
because they avoid the PU smear over the microporous membrane that
restricts Goretex's breathability.

The test I saw the video of on-line showed Gore-Tex being slightly more
breathable, but I'm sure there are tests that show the opposite as
well--depends on who's doing the testing. It doesn't really matter which
one, though I've never seen eVent on boots, only on garments, while
Gore-Tex is widely used on shoes and boots.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Even that is very arguable when most of the problem
with water and boots is the water coming in over the
top and no goretex makes any difference to that.

The military doesnt get around in wellies either.

I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my non-Gore-tex or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too
long to put my gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place

Dunno, I cant get past the fact that the military doesnt bother with it.

There has to be a reason for that.

(being a bit of a Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually pick up another pair for short & extremely wet
situations.

I just dont bother with sodden situations myself.

But then I dont 'live' on that soggy little island so I have a lot more choice on that.

For my normal use, membrane boots make sense as a third pair (normal heavy, normal light, then membrane).

I dont bother with lots of different types of boots.

In fact I wear what I use for walking all the time in winter and
wear what we call thongs and you lot call flip flops in summer.

I do wear the boots for walking in summer.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wear what we call thongs and you lot call flip flops in summer.


Is that to go with the boardies?

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Gordon wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex
lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.


Absolutely. And it's not just cost factor either.

LOL, and you actually believe the "King of Trolls?!"

Of course boots with Gore-Tex membranes for water-proofness and
breathability are used by the military. You can even buy factory seconds
of the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine boots with the GoreTex membrane.

"http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/men/footwear/performance-comfort/brand/Matterhorn/1251586146389"
"http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/wellco-us-army-gore-tex-icw-combat-boots-tan.aspx?a=545712"

Also, some militaries use socks with a GoreTex membrane, though this is
not as effective.

"http://www.cadetdirect.com/order1.php?pg=63"

For g-d's sake, if you're going to agree with someone, don't make it the
King of Trolls, someone who makes it a career of being uninformed on as
many subjects as is humanly possible.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Gordon wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wear what we call thongs and you lot call flip flops in summer.


Is that to go with the boardies?

Nope. They stick with bare feet.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

"SMS" wrote in message
...

Of course boots with Gore-Tex membranes for water-proofness and
breathability are used by the military. You can even buy factory seconds
of the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine boots with the GoreTex membrane.

"http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/men/footwear/performance-comfort/brand/Matterhorn/1251586146389"
"http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/wellco-us-army-gore-tex-icw-combat-boots-tan.aspx?a=545712"

Yep Military "APPROVED" NOT Military ISSUE. There's a world of difference in
that.


Also, some militaries use socks with a GoreTex membrane, though this is
not as effective.

"http://www.cadetdirect.com/order1.php?pg=63"

Again - NOT issued kit.


I'm getting very near to plonking you and your TOTAL inability to accept
that many people of long experience DISAGREE with you.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Gordon wrote:

"SMS" wrote in message
...

Of course boots with Gore-Tex membranes for water-proofness and
breathability are used by the military. You can even buy factory
seconds of the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine boots with the GoreTex membrane.

"http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/men/footwear/performance-comfort/brand/Matterhorn/1251586146389"

"http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/wellco-us-army-gore-tex-icw-combat-boots-tan.aspx?a=545712"


Yep Military "APPROVED" NOT Military ISSUE.

"Genuine military-issue Boots are factory seconds."

This is not like "Schwinn Approved." These are boots used by the military.

No one will think any worse of you if you admit your mistake.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote:

The test I saw the video of on-line showed Gore-Tex being slightly more
breathable

Oh, so why in another post did you write:

"In order of breathability, the ratings a

eVent
Gore-Tex XCR
Gore-Tex (standard)
HydroSeal (The North Face)
Membrain (Marmot)
Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear)
OmniTech (Columbia). "

It doesn't really matter which
one, though I've never seen eVent on boots, only on garments, while
Gore-Tex is widely used on shoes and boots.

I know for a fact, and have seen, shoes and boots from Karrimor, Keen
and Rohan using eVent for waterproof liners. I'd be very surprised if
there weren't more.

As usual, just because it's outside your own experience isn't the same
as "doesn't happen" or "is no good".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Rod Speed wrote:
Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my
non-Gore-tex or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too long to put
my gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place

Dunno, I cant get past the fact that the military doesnt bother with
it.

There has to be a reason for that.

One needs to realise that the military have rather different procurement
requirements. If you're on a tight budget and need a boot which will do
its stuff in a hot, dry desert as well as a swamp and you need to buy
100,000 pairs then that makes for a rather different evaluation job than
a person getting boots for their particular situation, and maybe another
pair for others.

I'd agree with Christopher that they do have their place: just bought a
pair of lined shoes for not-quite 7 yo daughter, because she goes a lot
slower than Mum & Dad and if her feet get wet at this time of year
they'll probably (certainly, this particular year) get very cold too.
The sort of damp that we shrug off as immaterial can really start to
wear her down if she's in her trainers and lead to a bad experience
which means less interested in walking next time.

(being a bit of a Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually
pick up another pair for short & extremely wet situations.

I just dont bother with sodden situations myself.

I do them a lot, because I go orienteering. And pretty much hardly
anyone bothers with waterproof shoes because if you're going to get wet
feet anyway (and you are if you're in a big hurry through a marsh) then
good drainage makes more sense than a membrane.

You can't really expect to go out in Scotland and not get submerged from
time to time. If wet feet really bother you then you can do what the
military do, which is use waterproof socks: easily replaced (unlike a
boot liner), and easy to not wear them on a nice day when an extra
plastic bag around your foot is just asking for uncomfortable sweating.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Peter Clinch wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my non-Gore-tex
or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too long to put my gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place

Dunno, I cant get past the fact that the military doesnt bother with it.

There has to be a reason for that.

One needs to realise that the military have rather different procurement requirements.

We'll see...

If you're on a tight budget

They arent with other military hardware. Boots are a tiny part of any military budget.

and need a boot which will do its stuff in a hot, dry desert as well as a swamp

You dont have to have just one boot for all situations.

They clearly dont do that with other military clothing.

and you need to buy 100,000 pairs then that makes for a
rather different evaluation job than a person getting boots
for their particular situation, and maybe another pair for others.

No reason why the military cant do that too, just
like they do with other articles of military clothing
like what is used for the upper parts of the body.

I'd agree with Christopher that they do have their place: just bought
a pair of lined shoes for not-quite 7 yo daughter, because she goes
a lot slower than Mum & Dad and if her feet get wet at this time of
year they'll probably (certainly, this particular year) get very cold too.

Lined boots arent the only way to avoid wet feet and
as others have pointed out, most of the water comes
in over the top, and that is true in spades of little kids.

They are likely better off with wellies used in wet weather.

The sort of damp that we shrug off as immaterial can really
start to wear her down if she's in her trainers and lead to a bad
experience which means less interested in walking next time.

Sure, but trainers arent the only alternative to lined boots.

(being a bit of a Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually
pick up another pair for short & extremely wet situations.

I just dont bother with sodden situations myself.

I do them a lot, because I go orienteering. And pretty much hardly
anyone bothers with waterproof shoes because if you're going to
get wet feet anyway (and you are if you're in a big hurry through a
marsh) then good drainage makes more sense than a membrane.

I'm not silly enough to charge thru marshes.

And even if I was, water coming in over the top is much more
of a problem than water getting thru the body of the boot.

You can't really expect to go out in Scotland
and not get submerged from time to time.

Sure, but most of us dont go anywhere near there.

Clearly those who 'live' there have less choice on that.

But there is no reason why those of us who live in much
less sodden places should bother with lined boots.

If wet feet really bother you then you can do what the military do,
which is use waterproof socks: easily replaced (unlike a boot liner),

Precisely.

and easy to not wear them on a nice day when an extra plastic
bag around your foot is just asking for uncomfortable sweating.

Precisely. Much more practical than lined boots.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

I mentioned boots because i'm that old that when my last pair were lost
(stolen from my car) they did not even make the modern type of stylish items
so prevalent today.

Thanks to all for your responses. so many conficting opinions i'm going
straight into therapy. :)

i've decided to go for so called trail shoes. with no goretex. and am
interested in the idea of waterproof socks (which i wont use in the warm
weather).

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in oxford st
with hundreds of different items. on their web site it says they do a
punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said it was their most
popular item).

i went into the sketchers shop and the manager did not know about the
punisher 3 trail shoe. i said what other trail shoes do you have and he
asked me what a trail shoe was? (they are listed on sketchers web site)
sigh

i went over the road to john lewis and they had a small selection of trail
shoes, but nothing suited me. so i will try the punisher 3 if i can find it
or another trail shoe without goretex or waterproof membrane.

i will have to re-read all through the posts to see if there is a trail shoe
mentioned by anyone of the type i want (no goretex) and at a modest price
and that i can get in london (u.k.). Thanks to all.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:45:58 -0000, john hamilton wrote:

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in oxford st
with hundreds of different items. on their web site it says they do a
punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said it was their most
popular item).

i went into the sketchers shop and the manager did not know about the
punisher 3 trail shoe. i said what other trail shoes do you have and he
asked me what a trail shoe was? (they are listed on sketchers web site)
sigh

Doesn't seem to be a very good company!

If you're in Oxford, it could be worth trying
GO Outdoors Oxford
426 Abingdon Road
Oxford
OX1 4XN
0845 112 0131

or there's
Bicester
Bicester Avenue, Bicester Avenue Home and Garden Centre, Oxford Road
Bicester, Oxfordshire
OX25 2NY
Tel: 01869 321423
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

john hamilton wrote:

i went into the sketchers shop and the manager did not know about the
punisher 3 trail shoe. i said what other trail shoes do you have and he
asked me what a trail shoe was? (they are listed on sketchers web site)
sigh

If you're in the Smoke, try Ellis Brigahm's and Field and Trek (both
near Covent Garden), Snow & Rock (IIRC on High Street Ken) and
Cotswolds, amongst others.

Blacks and Millets both stock some pretty reasonable trail shoes from
Merrel and Peter Storm, check them out to see if they fit your
particular feet. They have lots of branches in lots of places.

Don't consider the above an exhaustive list!

I personally favour Scarpas as they fit /my/ feet very well. The shoes
I use (Heliums) have been out of production for a while now, but if I
were to replace them my first try would be the Scarpa Axis. Not cheap
at £75 though.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On 29/03/2010 10:39, Peter Clinch wrote:


Blacks and Millets both stock some pretty reasonable trail shoes from
Merrel and Peter Storm,

There's definitely a Blacks in Oxford, at 117 St Aldates.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

john hamilton wrote:

i've decided to go for so called trail shoes. with no goretex. and am
interested in the idea of waterproof socks (which i wont use in the warm
weather).

Was recently thumbing through the latest TGO (aka The Great Outdoors)
mag in Smiths and noticed there's a bumper review of Trail Shoes in
there, so that may be worth a look.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On 27/03/10 2:45 PM, john hamilton wrote:

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in oxford st
with hundreds of different items. on their web site it says they do a
punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said it was their most
popular item).

The shoe you are talking about is called the Energy 3 Punisher. It's not
a trail shoe. It's a basic sneaker. As long as you're not using them on
trails, or in wet conditions, they'd be fine. Waterproof socks are a
terrible idea. I have some similar Skechers, "Skechers Energy Downforce"
which I like. One big plus of the Skechers brand, at least in the U.S.
is that they have many models with extensive sizing options, including
half-sizes past size 11, and wide sizes (this is fairly rare).

If you live in a place that gets a lot of rain (and expect to be wearing
the shoes out in the rain) you should look for a sale on The North Face
Men's Ultra 104 GoreTex Xcr Trail Running Shoes. These sell for around
$65 in the U.S. when on sale.

You won't save that much money by not getting a shoe with a GoreTex (or
other breathable membrane) and you lose a huge amount of functionality.
Waterproof socks don't serve the same purpose. GoreTex socks are
expensive, and are thick (like wearing two pairs of regular socks) so
you need to take that into account when choosing sizes. And of course if
the waterproofness in the shoes, the shoes can be used with any socks,
but the converse isn't true because the waterproof socks are so much
thicker.

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On 31/03/2010 16:25, SMS wrote:


All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

You're at it again - dogmatic unsubstantiated preaching. WHAT "experts"?
Give us some citations. What's the point of having a membrane lined SHOE
when the water will go over the top FAR easier than with boots?

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote:
On 27/03/10 2:45 PM, john hamilton wrote:

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in
oxford st with hundreds of different items. on their web site it
says they do a punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said
it was their most popular item).

The shoe you are talking about is called the Energy 3 Punisher. It's
not a trail shoe. It's a basic sneaker. As long as you're not using
them on trails, or in wet conditions, they'd be fine. Waterproof
socks are a terrible idea. I have some similar Skechers, "Skechers
Energy Downforce" which I like. One big plus of the Skechers brand,
at least in the U.S. is that they have many models with extensive
sizing options, including half-sizes past size 11, and wide sizes
(this is fairly rare).
If you live in a place that gets a lot of rain (and expect to be
wearing the shoes out in the rain) you should look for a sale on The
North Face Men's Ultra 104 GoreTex Xcr Trail Running Shoes. These
sell for around $65 in the U.S. when on sale.

You won't save that much money by not getting a shoe with a GoreTex
(or other breathable membrane) and you lose a huge amount of
functionality. Waterproof socks don't serve the same purpose. GoreTex
socks are expensive, and are thick (like wearing two pairs of regular
socks) so you need to take that into account when choosing sizes. And
of course if the waterproofness in the shoes, the shoes can be used
with any socks, but the converse isn't true because the waterproof
socks are so much thicker.

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

Like hell they do, most obviously with the military.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

Gordon wrote
SMS wrote

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a breathable, waterproof membrane.

You're at it again - dogmatic unsubstantiated preaching. WHAT "experts"? Give us some citations.

Yeah, pity about the military that would have to be more expert than most.

The most you can really claim with them is that their needs can be a
bit different to someone's needs for recreation, particularly when its
much easier to have multiple different footware for recreational situation.

What's the point of having a membrane lined SHOE when the water will go over the top FAR easier than with boots?

Most obviously when you choose to walk where it can be
wet after rain etc, but not thru rivers and standing water etc.

I personally dont even bother to walk after heavy rain, mainly
because where I walk ends up with massive build up of mud
on the bottom of the boots in that situation. But then we get
that sort of rain very rarely, hardly ever more than once a year
and its easy to avoid those days when you walk roughly daily.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:54:25 +0100, Gordon wrote:

On 31/03/2010 16:25, SMS wrote:


All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

You're at it again - dogmatic unsubstantiated preaching. WHAT "experts"?
Give us some citations. What's the point of having a membrane lined SHOE
when the water will go over the top FAR easier than with boots?

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On 31/03/10 3:03 PM, Geoff Berrow wrote:

snip

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

There's a good reason why most military infantry boots have a GoreTex
membrane, you don't want to deal with wet feet on a mission. I.e.
"http://marketplace.news.yahoo.net/pressrelease.aspx?id=202678". Not
that hikers and backpackers have the same needs as the military, but it
makes sense to consider all the trade-offs when making a selection.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote
Geoff Berrow wrote

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams,
and on rough trails
with a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or
some other brand) of breathable membrane.

There's a good reason why most military infantry boots have a GoreTex membrane,

Like hell they do.

you don't want to deal with wet feet on a mission. I.e.
"http://marketplace.news.yahoo.net/pressrelease.aspx?id=202678". Not that hikers and backpackers have the same needs
as the military, but it makes sense to consider all the trade-offs when making a selection.

But you mindlessly proclaim that GoreTex or similar is absolutely essential.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 3:03 PM, Geoff Berrow wrote:

snip

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.


Again you evidently have different uses for your shoes than I do.
I find wet grass has much more of a wetting potential than the
occasional (or even fairly frequent) dip into water. Then, again, I'm
often off established trails.

Again, because I'm often on the go for several days at a time, I find
quick drying more important than keeping out every last bit of moisture.

And, again, when my feet do get seriously wet, it's from water or snow
coming in through the top. Your "miracle membrane" won't stop that and
will take *much* longer to dry.

There is no one-size-fits-all. Your mindless preaching about Gore-Tex
shoes being ideal for everyone and in all situations really is becoming
ridiculous.

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:19:21 +0200, Christopher Loffredo
wrote:

There is no one-size-fits-all. Your mindless preaching about Gore-Tex
shoes being ideal for everyone and in all situations really is becoming
ridiculous.

I agree. I'm happy with membranes because as I've got older my feet
don't sweat as much. Not everyone is the same.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker

walking boots-- which are good?
 

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:44:19 -0700, SMS
wrote:


I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.

Wet grass?! I wouldn't hesitate to wear non-waterproof boots in wet
grass, it's hiking in the rain, across streams, and on rough trails with
a lot of puddles that you really want boots with a GoreTex (or some
other brand) of breathable membrane.

I was talking about trail shoes. I've never had boots without a
membrane and so can't tell you if they would be better or worse. I
limit my comments to situations where I have direct experience and
respect the fact that everyone's needs are different. I commend it to
you.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker