Michael Black wrote:

snip

And your "Pro-Gore-Tex" isn't a religion?

No, it's based on facts. It's like evolution versus creationism.

I'm using "Gore-Tex" loosely though, it could be one of several other
waterproof, breathable membranes. I've had garments with several
different types, and all work pretty much the same. Gore-Tex tends to
work better because they've been refining it for so many decades,
working out the kinks in terms of reliability and longevity.

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex, I'd let the rest of
the design features (and cost) of the garment or footwear determine
which one to choose.

For full grain leather boots you can achieve water-proofing with a
product like Sno-Seal which closes all the pores in the leather, but it
effectively stops any transfer of moisture. For other boots (fabric,
split grain leather, or Nubuck, you definitely want to have some sort of
waterproof breathable membrane if you're going to wear them in wet
weather, expect to step in puddles, etc.

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

Once you find all the boots with the necessary design elements you begin
to narrow down your choices based on other factors like fit, aesthetics,
price, etc..

"SMS" wrote in message
...

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.



In YOUR obsessive dogmatic opinion. Many people do NOT share your OBSESSIVE
dogmatic opinion.
Interesting how Army boots do NOT have any sort of membrane in them and they
are EXTENSIVELY tested in all sorts of terrain and climatic conditions, and
can be worn 24/7 for days on end...

SMS wrote:

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex,

But eVent has been tested as a fair bit more breathable than Goretex,
because they avoid the PU smear over the microporous membrane that
restricts Goretex's breathability.

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

As has been pointed out numerous times, lots of people, some with
/vastly/ more experience than the likes of us, prefer boots with no
liner for wet places. And they don't clog up all the pores with wax either.

As has been pointed out numerous times, some of the top rated boots (by
experts and proles alike) in the UK include the Scarpa SL and Manata.
They've been firm favourites for decades now in their various forms, but
none of those forms has ever had a waterproof lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

As has been pointed out numerous times, there are other alternatives
which work better in particular niches. So you'll find a lot of folk on
serious mud much prefer a more aggressively studded sole like Walsh's or
Inov-8's.

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

As has been pointed out numerous times, you don't need "extreme high
end" boots to go hiking. So it can't be necessary.

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

There's no special need for support, leather is not the only way to give
it, and durability may not be an issue. If you're an occasional hiker,
or can buy two pairs of less durable boots for the same money, it's not
something you /need/.

How long before the stuck record jumps back, I wonder?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote:
SMS wrote:

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex,

But eVent has been tested as a fair bit more breathable than Goretex,
because they avoid the PU smear over the microporous membrane that
restricts Goretex's breathability.

The test I saw the video of on-line showed Gore-Tex being slightly more
breathable, but I'm sure there are tests that show the opposite as
well--depends on who's doing the testing. It doesn't really matter which
one, though I've never seen eVent on boots, only on garments, while
Gore-Tex is widely used on shoes and boots.

SMS wrote:

The test I saw the video of on-line showed Gore-Tex being slightly more
breathable

Oh, so why in another post did you write:

"In order of breathability, the ratings a

eVent
Gore-Tex XCR
Gore-Tex (standard)
HydroSeal (The North Face)
Membrain (Marmot)
Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear)
OmniTech (Columbia). "

It doesn't really matter which
one, though I've never seen eVent on boots, only on garments, while
Gore-Tex is widely used on shoes and boots.

I know for a fact, and have seen, shoes and boots from Karrimor, Keen
and Rohan using eVent for waterproof liners. I'd be very surprised if
there weren't more.

As usual, just because it's outside your own experience isn't the same
as "doesn't happen" or "is no good".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

SMS wrote:


1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

Once you find all the boots with the necessary design elements you begin
to narrow down your choices based on other factors like fit, aesthetics,
price, etc..

Your opinion is noted, indeed it is difficult to evade being repeated ad
nauseam without addressing any of the counter arguments. However much
you bang the drum it remains only your opinion, unsupported by evidence
and countered by many people's experience in the real world.


No breathable liner works if the outside is covered with water - it
can't breathe. Guess what happens to boots in even mildly wet conditions.

No breathable liner is robust enough to stand up to the stretching that
occurs as you walk - it tears along the stitching. Then it leaks.

Breathable liners inside leather are a waste of money. They will fail,
but if you proof the boot by the usual methods (Nikwax, castor oil,
dubbin, uncle tom cobbley and all) the liner becomes a problem.

I've had Gore-tex lined boots. They all leaked, after a relatively
short while, well before the sole or uppers showed any signs of wearing out.


(What's this doing on frugal-living? Gore-tex certainly ain't frugal...)