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Is it important?
Is it important that the gardeners' counts of birds is accurate or
not, for the British Trust for Ornothology's "Garden Bird Watch" scheme? Or is this just another charity survey to catch potential supporters and donors by making them feel useful? |
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Is it important?
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#3
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Is it important?
On Nov 4, 9:37*pm, wrote:
Is it important that the gardeners' counts of birds is accurate or not, for the British Trust for Ornothology's "Garden Bird Watch" scheme? Or is this just another charity survey to catch potential supporters and donors by making them feel useful? All sounds a bit random and uncontrolled to me. I don't see how they can tell anything about numbers. Distribution, maybe. Depending on how accurately people identify the birds. |
#4
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The consistency of seasonal patterns from year to year in the Garden Bird Watch figures suggests that the sources of error aren't in fact changing much over time. The benefit of Garden Bird Watch is the large number of observers and the length of time it has been running - this is a useful complement to other studies which, for practical reasons, have to be more limited in both time and location. Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response?
__________________
getstats - A society in which our lives and choices are enriched by an understanding of statistics. Go to www.getstats.org.uk for more information |
#5
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The consistency of seasonal patterns from year to year in the Garden Bird Watch figures suggests that the sources of error aren't in fact changing much over time. The benefit of Garden Bird Watch is the large number of observers and the length of time it has been running - this is a useful complement to other studies which, for practical reasons, have to be more limited in both time and location. Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response?
__________________
getstats - A society in which our lives and choices are enriched by an understanding of statistics. Go to www.getstats.org.uk for more information |
#6
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We completely understand the suspicion that sometimes surrounds 'citizen science' projects, especially where some form of subscription is involved. The year-round BTO Garden BirdWatch (GBW) certainly has scientific merit, with a sizeable publication record of peer-reviewed scientific papers. The survey relies on its robust and repeatable methods to collect large-scale information on how birds (and other taxa) use gardens and how this use varies over time, in relation to surrounding habitat, within garden practices and geographic location.
Although there is variation in the ability of individual participants, and in the amount of time they spend carrying out the recording, our statistical models typically include a site-effect, which enables us to control for this variation. From a statistical perspective, the sheer size of the project increases its robustness, since it is the underlying patterns that are important. The survey is self-funded, through the generosity of its participants and without this funding we would not be able to operate such a scheme. GBW data feed into conservation indicators and have real value, allowing us to collect information for a habitat that is difficult to monitor. It is worth noting that the BTO is an independent and impartial research organisation. It does not campaign and it is well-respected for its rigorous scientific position. |
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Is it important?
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:24:44 -0000, BTO GBW
wrote: kay;904411 Wrote: Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response? We completely understand the suspicion that sometimes surrounds 'citizen science' projects, especially where some form of subscription is involved. The year-round BTO Garden BirdWatch (GBW) certainly has scientific merit, with a sizeable publication record of peer-reviewed scientific papers. The survey relies on its robust and repeatable methods to collect large-scale information on how birds (and other taxa) use gardens and how this use varies over time, in relation to surrounding habitat, within garden practices and geographic location. Although there is variation in the ability of individual participants, and in the amount of time they spend carrying out the recording, our statistical models typically include a site-effect, which enables us to control for this variation. From a statistical perspective, the sheer size of the project increases its robustness, since it is the underlying patterns that are important. The survey is self-funded, through the generosity of its participants and without this funding we would not be able to operate such a scheme. GBW data feed into conservation indicators and have real value, allowing us to collect information for a habitat that is difficult to monitor. It is worth noting that the BTO is an independent and impartial research organisation. It does not campaign and it is well-respected for its rigorous scientific position. As a contributor to GBW for some years I fully support the project and I am happy that I get out it as much, if not more, than I input. Whilst I do have some concerns about the big business ethic of the RSPB and the disproportionate influence it has in some quarters, I wholeheartedly support the aims of the BTO and am grateful for the knowledge that I have gained from them, particularly from their reports and publications. It is worth bearing in mind that the OP does have a long history of confrontations with various conservation organisations and URGlers may wish to check his bona fides before responding. -- rbel |
#8
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Is it important?
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:15:33 -0000, rbel wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:24:44 -0000, BTO GBW wrote: kay;904411 Wrote: Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response? We completely understand the suspicion that sometimes surrounds 'citizen science' projects, especially where some form of subscription is involved. The year-round BTO Garden BirdWatch (GBW) certainly has scientific merit, with a sizeable publication record of peer-reviewed scientific papers. The survey relies on its robust and repeatable methods to collect large-scale information on how birds (and other taxa) use gardens and how this use varies over time, in relation to surrounding habitat, within garden practices and geographic location. Although there is variation in the ability of individual participants, and in the amount of time they spend carrying out the recording, our statistical models typically include a site-effect, which enables us to control for this variation. From a statistical perspective, the sheer size of the project increases its robustness, since it is the underlying patterns that are important. The survey is self-funded, through the generosity of its participants and without this funding we would not be able to operate such a scheme. GBW data feed into conservation indicators and have real value, allowing us to collect information for a habitat that is difficult to monitor. It is worth noting that the BTO is an independent and impartial research organisation. It does not campaign and it is well-respected for its rigorous scientific position. As a contributor to GBW for some years I fully support the project and I am happy that I get out it as much, if not more, than I input. Like what? Do you believe it can actually provide data outside of the participating gardens and be used to extend that information to whole bird populations? Whilst I do have some concerns about the big business ethic of the RSPB and the disproportionate influence it has in some quarters, I wholeheartedly support the aims of the BTO and am grateful for the knowledge that I have gained from them, particularly from their reports and publications. Good, I have no problem with your position with the BTO who probably do some good in some areas. But you haven't addressed the specific issue I raise. Why not? It is worth bearing in mind that the OP does have a long history of confrontations with various conservation organisations and URGlers may wish to check his bona fides before responding. I don't deny I criticise dishonesty and misrepresentation in the conservation industry. Many are fakes in reality. They exploit the natural environment to fund their agendas; they don't conserve it. So rather than follow Malcolm's obsession against me, who follows me around like a little dog, look at what I say objectively and if you wish, argue against it? |
#9
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Is it important?
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:24:44 +0000, BTO GBW
wrote: kay;904411 Wrote: Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response? We completely understand the suspicion that sometimes surrounds 'citizen science' projects, especially where some form of subscription is involved. That's beginning to sound like it's a money spinner. It is interesting that BTO charge gardeners for the infoprmation rather than the other way round. The year-round BTO Garden BirdWatch (GBW) certainly has scientific merit, with a sizeable publication record of peer-reviewed scientific papers. Could you expand on that and tell us what scientific merit it has? The survey relies on its robust and repeatable methods to collect large-scale information on how birds (and other taxa) use gardens and how this use varies over time, But only in participating gardens. in relation to surrounding habitat, within garden practices and geographic location. Please tell us how you work that out? Although there is variation in the ability of individual participants, and in the amount of time they spend carrying out the recording, our statistical models typically include a site-effect, which enables us to control for this variation. From a statistical perspective, the sheer size of the project increases its robustness, since it is the underlying patterns that are important. It's not even the ability of individual participants that is a problem; it's the unknown factors outside of participating gardens that make this whole exercise look like nonsense to me.. OK , it's a bit of fun for the gullible but is it of any use other than to make the BTO a few bob? Have you ever tried to count sparrows coming and going in a garden? We have loads of them and I defy anyone to count them and know whether the same ones are counted over and over again? The survey is self-funded, through the generosity of its participants. I'm sure it is :-)) Would that be the point of it? and without this funding we would not be able to operate such a scheme. GBW data feed into conservation indicators and have real value, allowing us to collect information for a habitat that is difficult to monitor. Like what habitat? It is worth noting that the BTO is an independent and impartial research organisation. It does not campaign and it is well-respected for its rigorous scientific position. Well, how about proving it here on this newsgroup. No better place! |
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__________________
getstats - A society in which our lives and choices are enriched by an understanding of statistics. Go to www.getstats.org.uk for more information |
#11
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Is it important?
"Malcolm" wrote in message ... In article , BTO GBW writes kay;904411 Wrote: Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response? We completely understand the suspicion that sometimes surrounds 'citizen science' projects, especially where some form of subscription is involved. The year-round BTO Garden BirdWatch (GBW) certainly has scientific merit, with a sizeable publication record of peer-reviewed scientific papers. The survey relies on its robust and repeatable methods to collect large-scale information on how birds (and other taxa) use gardens and how this use varies over time, in relation to surrounding habitat, within garden practices and geographic location. Although there is variation in the ability of individual participants, and in the amount of time they spend carrying out the recording, our statistical models typically include a site-effect, which enables us to control for this variation. From a statistical perspective, the sheer size of the project increases its robustness, since it is the underlying patterns that are important. The survey is self-funded, through the generosity of its participants and without this funding we would not be able to operate such a scheme. GBW data feed into conservation indicators and have real value, allowing us to collect information for a habitat that is difficult to monitor. It is worth noting that the BTO is an independent and impartial research organisation. It does not campaign and it is well-respected for its rigorous scientific position. You should note that the original poster has been trolling these same views on GBW in not only this newsgroup but also uk.environment.conservation and uk.rec.birdwatching. You should also note that he is strongly anti-conservation and conservation organisations. See, for example: http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/a3285_00.html which sets out the court case in which the Woodland Trust sued him concerning what he was saying about them and won. I have already informed him of the scientific value of the GBW, for example: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0012215 and, from the Independent website "This citizen science project highlights the valuable role that volunteers can play in helping us learn more about wildlife diseases, even by just watching birds in their gardens for a couple of hours each week," said Becki Lawson, a wildlife vet from the Zoological Society of London and another lead author of the study. -- Just to add to what Malcolm has said and warn urglers that Angus was a perfect nuisance on the birdwatching group some time ago re his anti-conservation organisation stance in particular the RSPB. I'd hoped he'd gone but it seems he's resurfaced to try his luck on gardeners. He'll just go back in my killfile. Tina |
#12
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Is it important?
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:31:40 +0000, Malcolm
wrote: In article , BTO GBW writes kay;904411 Wrote: Has anyone asked Garden Bird Watch for their response? We completely understand the suspicion that sometimes surrounds 'citizen science' projects, especially where some form of subscription is involved. The year-round BTO Garden BirdWatch (GBW) certainly has scientific merit, with a sizeable publication record of peer-reviewed scientific papers. The survey relies on its robust and repeatable methods to collect large-scale information on how birds (and other taxa) use gardens and how this use varies over time, in relation to surrounding habitat, within garden practices and geographic location. Although there is variation in the ability of individual participants, and in the amount of time they spend carrying out the recording, our statistical models typically include a site-effect, which enables us to control for this variation. From a statistical perspective, the sheer size of the project increases its robustness, since it is the underlying patterns that are important. The survey is self-funded, through the generosity of its participants and without this funding we would not be able to operate such a scheme. GBW data feed into conservation indicators and have real value, allowing us to collect information for a habitat that is difficult to monitor. It is worth noting that the BTO is an independent and impartial research organisation. It does not campaign and it is well-respected for its rigorous scientific position. You should note that the original poster has been trolling these same views on GBW in not only this newsgroup but also uk.environment.conservation and uk.rec.birdwatching. I'm not trolling anything! I have asked you upmteen times to answer the simple question: Is it important that the gardeners' counts of birds is accurate or not, for the British Trust for Ornothology's "Garden Bird Watch" scheme? And you won't answer it. If it's important that the counts are accurate then how does the BTO ensure they are. If it's not important then the whole survey is farsical. It should also be borne in mind that these counts are only in participating gardens and external influences, such as someone starting to feed birds or stopping feeding birds nearby, could dramatically change the number of birds counted in any participating garden. You should also note that he is strongly anti-conservation and conservation organisations. See, for example: http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/a3285_00.html which sets out the court case in which the Woodland Trust sued him concerning what he was saying about them and won. They objected to about three everyday words used to describe their killing of roe deer And are they really "conservationists" when they expand the human footprint into wildlife habitats? Little wonder urban foxes and deer are increasing. They are keen to promote the planting of trees but not much is said about killing wildlife to protect them. I have already informed him of the scientific value of the GBW, for example: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0012215 and, from the Independent website "This citizen science project highlights the valuable role that volunteers can play in helping us learn more about wildlife diseases, even by just watching birds in their gardens for a couple of hours each week," said Becki Lawson, a wildlife vet from the Zoological Society of London and another lead author of the study. Really! Well perhaps the BTO or the scientists involved can justify their study on this newsgroup since you can't. Let me start it off by saying: the idea that a narrow study of these participating gardens can be extended to whole populations seems to me to be complete nonsense. Birds numbers could be high because they're being fed or low because they are being infected by disease by sharing bird tables or being in close proximinity with each other So that brings me to my second question: Is this just another charity survey to catch potential supporters and donors by making them feel useful? I'm quite willing to debate this at length. Is the BTO willing to do the same? |
#13
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Is it important?
On 05/11/2010 14:24, Janet wrote:
In article601b0ad9-3cc3-464d-8496-dbcb7987be30 @e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, says... All sounds a bit random and uncontrolled to me. :-) AIUI, statisticians arrange randomisation and anonymity, to avoid biased results. That is actually difficult to do with a self seleted "random" sample. By definition anyone prepared to watch and count for an hour is at least slightly interested in wildlife and birds in particular. This means that the folk who have tarmaced their entire front garden for carparking and installed CCA treated lumber decking on the rest will be under represented in the sample. I don't see how they can tell anything about numbers. Distribution, maybe. Depending on how accurately people identify the birds. For anyone unsure of bird ID, there are free photo leaflets available on request; a good way to encourage children to learn how to recognise birds. I would guess most adult participants are sufficiently interested in birds to recognise their local species. Bird-counts help map population distribution changes. We've been doing gardenbird counts and local sighting-reports for years. I'm not a member of any of the bodies I return bird counts and sightings to; there is no financial or reward incentive involved. I reckon it is fairly harmless and as you say helps get some more people interested in birds and wildlife. Regards, Martin Brown |
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