In message ,
Janet writes
In article ,
says...
On 16/03/2011 11:05, Baz wrote:

2 Soil. (light)Mine does not retain moisture despite adding lots of
organic material and have to water every day in summer with a
hosepipe when permitted. This is mainly potatoes which need the water
I have found.


I have to say that buying mulch is going to be quite expensive. That
option
is not for me and I should have pointed out so. If it was a one time
purchase I would be the first in the queue.

I didn't have in mind buying it. Anything organic will do as a mulch to
keep water in. I tend to use rougher compost from my heap for this
purpose and let the worms mix it in. All you want is something coarse
enough to let water in easily and prevent excessive evaporation.

I've also used dead bracken, green bracken,nettles and comfrey,
seaweed, grasscuttings. If the mulch is in short supply, spread it on a
bottom layer of flattened cardboard cartons (free from white-goods
retailer).


Yup, we mostly use grass cuttings, or straw for mulching the veg bed.
also sometimes cardboard, which makes a pretty good weed suppressing
mulch.

We do have to buy the straw, but living in rural Cambs it is v. cheap.

I prefer mulches for the veg beds that will break down and be
incorporated into the soil. Things like bark are better in more
permanent areas such as flower beds.
--
Chris French

"Baz" wrote ...

Over the last year or two I have been pleased to take advice from users of
this group, but I still need help and advice with two niggling problems
which if solved would be very nice, to say the least.

1 Whitefly on brassicas. THE problem.
2 Soil. (light)Mine does not retain moisture despite adding lots of organic
material and have to water every day in summer with a hosepipe when
permitted. This is mainly potatoes which need the water I have found.

............................................
1. Dilute washing up liquid sprayed onto them can help but there isn't much
else available now Bifenthrin (Polysect) has been withdrawn from sale to the
public. We keep being encouraged to "grow your own" but they keep making it
more and more difficult for the public by withdrawing all the pesticides
that actually work.

2. Our soil is Thames silt and contains clay but we still have to water
every day in summer, mulches help and, if you can stand the messy look, old
carpet laid over the soil will keep in moisture. You're lucky you can use a
hose, we can't.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

"Bob Hobden" wrote in
:



"Baz" wrote ...

Over the last year or two I have been pleased to take advice from
users of this group, but I still need help and advice with two
niggling problems which if solved would be very nice, to say the
least.

1 Whitefly on brassicas. THE problem.
2 Soil. (light)Mine does not retain moisture despite adding lots of
organic material and have to water every day in summer with a hosepipe
when permitted. This is mainly potatoes which need the water I have
found.

...........................................
1. Dilute washing up liquid sprayed onto them can help but there isn't
much else available now Bifenthrin (Polysect) has been withdrawn from
sale to the public. We keep being encouraged to "grow your own" but
they keep making it more and more difficult for the public by
withdrawing all the pesticides that actually work.

2. Our soil is Thames silt and contains clay but we still have to
water every day in summer, mulches help and, if you can stand the
messy look, old carpet laid over the soil will keep in moisture.
You're lucky you can use a hose, we can't.


Bob, thanks for your reply,
I have tried the diluted washing up liquid and I think that it could work
if started early enough in the growing season, before infestation. I
think I left it too late last year as I stupidly let them get a hold
before I did something about it. Prevention is better than a cure in this
case? I took advice and used my car-vac to 'hoover them up' and it works
up to a point, at least I managed to get a growth of sprouts, but very
small. If hadn't I think the growth would have been zero.
It could well be the case this year to spray early to stop them before
they are seen and keep on with it, and if any get through the radar, get
the vac. out. Of cours it didn't matter last year because the month and a
half of snow they were under killed all but 2 of them and ALL of my hardy
winter cabbage, but I have a very good compost heap now as a result.

Can't you use a hosepipe at all? Are you talking at home or on an
allotment. I don't have an allotment but in my garden at home the
authorities sometimes have a ban on hosepipes in summer. Also I am lucky
to not be on a water meter.

You made me chuckle with the carpet tip, I can't get enough of hessian
backed carpet and if you turn it upside down it all looks the same(ish)
after a year or so of sun/rain/muck.
I say hessian because unlike many synthetic it holds water, especially if
it is wool woven. It is just so expensive now that it's not common
anymore so rare to get your hands on a bit of it somebody has chucked
out.

Anyway a 2/3 pronged attack to get rid of whitefly is my attack this
year.(the third is insecticide however ineffective)

Regards
Baz

Thought this seemed like a new thread, really.

On 03/16/2011 02:07 PM, Sacha wrote:
Bark chips are useful but have to be approached with caution, if not
rotted down. As they rot, they leach some of the nutrients from the
soil. This corrects itself over time but can lead to some shrubs
looking pretty sick.

Interesting that you should mention this. I've done some tree-work this
year, and as part of the deal got my own chips plus a free truck load
(we see the boss of the company sometimes at parties, so had an in) of
chips the total around 10 m3.

I had always ascribed to Sacha's view above, but the garden needs mulch,
so I researched it a little.

Now, I don't always agree completely with Mrs. Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott,
but she does seem to have researched this area specifically. She tends
to be a little unequivocal for my tastes, for instance in the pdf she
claims "healthy plants are not susceptible to opportunistic pathogens
such as Armillaria and Phytophthora" Ah ha. Perhaps less susceptible.
But of course plants become stressed for a variety of reasons, which
makes them more vulnerable to these and other pathogens.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%2.../Woodchips.pdf

Googling "fresh wood chips linda chalker scott" also turns up a bit of
interesting discussion, the link is the first hit.

Personally I've had decent results with this kind of mulch before.
Maples in particular need to be mulched, but you have to keep the mulch
a couple of inches from the bark to avoid moisture/freezing injuries and
associated pseudomonas.

-E

On 03/18/2011 02:41 PM, Sacha wrote:
On 2011-03-18 11:39:00 +0000, Emery Davis said:

Thought this seemed like a new thread, really.

On 03/16/2011 02:07 PM, Sacha wrote:
Bark chips are useful but have to be approached with caution, if not
rotted down. As they rot, they leach some of the nutrients from the
soil. This corrects itself over time but can lead to some shrubs
looking pretty sick.

Interesting that you should mention this. I've done some tree-work this
year, and as part of the deal got my own chips plus a free truck load
(we see the boss of the company sometimes at parties, so had an in) of
chips the total around 10 m3.

I had always ascribed to Sacha's view above, but the garden needs mulch,
so I researched it a little.

Now, I don't always agree completely with Mrs. Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott,
but she does seem to have researched this area specifically. She tends
to be a little unequivocal for my tastes, for instance in the pdf she
claims "healthy plants are not susceptible to opportunistic pathogens
such as Armillaria and Phytophthora" Ah ha. Perhaps less susceptible.
But of course plants become stressed for a variety of reasons, which
makes them more vulnerable to these and other pathogens.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%2.../Woodchips.pdf


Googling

"fresh wood chips linda chalker scott" also turns up a bit of
interesting discussion, the link is the first hit.

Personally I've had decent results with this kind of mulch before.
Maples in particular need to be mulched, but you have to keep the mulch
a couple of inches from the bark to avoid moisture/freezing injuries and
associated pseudomonas.

-E

Interesting article which I'm going to print off for Ray. The first
time I heard any mention of this from him was when we were going round a
friend's Jersey garden, well-known there for having lovely Camellias.
Her now-very-old gardener had put down bark chippings to cut down on
weeding and all the Camellias were turning yellow in the leaf -
chlorotic. Friend asked Ray if he knew why and that was his answer and
of course, it's not his alone! It may have something to do with what
the bark is applied to and what kind of bar it is., perhaps? AFAIK her
soil was neutral but I can't be certain of that. Certainly, Camellias
seem to grow very well in most parts of Jersey.

I've heard the same opinion (Ray's I mean) from other reputable sources
too. I'll be interested what he think about Mrs. Dr.'s opinion. In one
of the discussions google shows up she talks about the difference
between wood chips and bark chips, and of course part of her (admirable
I think) goal here is to get us to use local mulch, not buy the stuff in
bags.

-E

In message , Baz
writes


1 Whitefly on brassicas. THE problem.

They do say plant lots of tagetes in amongst your stuff.
Apparently the whitefly prefer the tagetes and leave the brassicas
alone.
Never tried it myself but a friend used to swear by it.
--
Flossie

"Baz" wrote ...

"Bob Hobden"



"Baz" wrote ...

Over the last year or two I have been pleased to take advice from
users of this group, but I still need help and advice with two
niggling problems which if solved would be very nice, to say the
least.

1 Whitefly on brassicas. THE problem.
2 Soil. (light)Mine does not retain moisture despite adding lots of
organic material and have to water every day in summer with a hosepipe
when permitted. This is mainly potatoes which need the water I have
found.

...........................................
1. Dilute washing up liquid sprayed onto them can help but there isn't
much else available now Bifenthrin (Polysect) has been withdrawn from
sale to the public. We keep being encouraged to "grow your own" but
they keep making it more and more difficult for the public by
withdrawing all the pesticides that actually work.

2. Our soil is Thames silt and contains clay but we still have to
water every day in summer, mulches help and, if you can stand the
messy look, old carpet laid over the soil will keep in moisture.
You're lucky you can use a hose, we can't.


Bob, thanks for your reply,
I have tried the diluted washing up liquid and I think that it could work
if started early enough in the growing season, before infestation. I
think I left it too late last year as I stupidly let them get a hold
before I did something about it. Prevention is better than a cure in this
case? I took advice and used my car-vac to 'hoover them up' and it works
up to a point, at least I managed to get a growth of sprouts, but very
small. If hadn't I think the growth would have been zero.
It could well be the case this year to spray early to stop them before
they are seen and keep on with it, and if any get through the radar, get
the vac. out. Of cours it didn't matter last year because the month and a
half of snow they were under killed all but 2 of them and ALL of my hardy
winter cabbage, but I have a very good compost heap now as a result.

Can't you use a hosepipe at all? Are you talking at home or on an
allotment. I don't have an allotment but in my garden at home the
authorities sometimes have a ban on hosepipes in summer. Also I am lucky
to not be on a water meter.

You made me chuckle with the carpet tip, I can't get enough of hessian
backed carpet and if you turn it upside down it all looks the same(ish)
after a year or so of sun/rain/muck.
I say hessian because unlike many synthetic it holds water, especially if
it is wool woven. It is just so expensive now that it's not common
anymore so rare to get your hands on a bit of it somebody has chucked
out.

Anyway a 2/3 pronged attack to get rid of whitefly is my attack this
year.(the third is insecticide however ineffective)

...................................

It's on the allotment we can't use a hose, and this is a warm area of the
country!!

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

In article , says...

You made me chuckle with the carpet tip, I can't get enough of hessian
backed carpet and if you turn it upside down it all looks the same(ish)
after a year or so of sun/rain/muck.
I say hessian because unlike many synthetic it holds water, especially if
it is wool woven. It is just so expensive now that it's not common
anymore so rare to get your hands on a bit of it somebody has chucked
out.

I get it free *and* delivered from a local carpet fitter; he's forever
taking it out during refits and he's glad to give it away because he has
to pay to dump it. Great for paths, covered with pebbles or chipped
brash.

Don't use any synthetic rubber/foam backed carpets for this.. the rubber
soon begins to disintegrate hideously.

Janet

On 03/19/2011 10:23 AM, Sacha wrote:
I showed the article to Ray, Emery. While he respects her knowledge
etc., of course he disagrees still with the putting of fresh bark
chippings onto shrubs. In his experience, they leach the nitrogen from
the soil as they rot down, though they do put it back *later*. In the
meantime, though, you can have some pretty sick shrubs. Of course, as I
said above, it may be a question of which bark to which shrubs and all
sorts of other factors. We haven't conducted trials and the Dr. has.
I'm afraid we're not going to, either, because we're rather fond of our
plants!

I'll let you know next year if my "kill rate" has gone up!

-E

In article , Sacha
wrote:

On 2011-03-18 16:15:18 +0000, Emery Davis said:

On 03/18/2011 02:41 PM, Sacha wrote:
On 2011-03-18 11:39:00 +0000, Emery Davis said:

Thought this seemed like a new thread, really.

On 03/16/2011 02:07 PM, Sacha wrote:
Bark chips are useful but have to be approached with caution, if not
rotted down. As they rot, they leach some of the nutrients from the
soil. This corrects itself over time but can lead to some shrubs
looking pretty sick.

Interesting that you should mention this. I've done some tree-work this
year, and as part of the deal got my own chips plus a free truck load
(we see the boss of the company sometimes at parties, so had an in) of
chips the total around 10 m3.

I had always ascribed to Sacha's view above, but the garden needs mulch,
so I researched it a little.

Now, I don't always agree completely with Mrs. Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott,
but she does seem to have researched this area specifically. She tends
to be a little unequivocal for my tastes, for instance in the pdf she
claims "healthy plants are not susceptible to opportunistic pathogens
such as Armillaria and Phytophthora" Ah ha. Perhaps less susceptible.
But of course plants become stressed for a variety of reasons, which
makes them more vulnerable to these and other pathogens.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%2...ural%20myths_f
iles/Myths/magazine%20pdfs/Woodchips.pdf


Googling

"fresh

wood chips linda chalker scott" also turns up a bit of
interesting discussion, the link is the first hit.

Personally I've had decent results with this kind of mulch before.
Maples in particular need to be mulched, but you have to keep the mulch
a couple of inches from the bark to avoid moisture/freezing injuries and
associated pseudomonas.

-E

Interesting article which I'm going to print off for Ray. The first
time I heard any mention of this from him was when we were going round a
friend's Jersey garden, well-known there for having lovely Camellias.
Her now-very-old gardener had put down bark chippings to cut down on
weeding and all the Camellias were turning yellow in the leaf -
chlorotic. Friend asked Ray if he knew why and that was his answer and
of course, it's not his alone! It may have something to do with what
the bark is applied to and what kind of bar it is., perhaps? AFAIK her
soil was neutral but I can't be certain of that. Certainly, Camellias
seem to grow very well in most parts of Jersey.

I've heard the same opinion (Ray's I mean) from other reputable sources
too. I'll be interested what he think about Mrs. Dr.'s opinion. In one
of the discussions google shows up she talks about the difference
between wood chips and bark chips, and of course part of her (admirable
I think) goal here is to get us to use local mulch, not buy the stuff in
bags.

-E

I showed the article to Ray, Emery. While he respects her knowledge
etc., of course he disagrees still with the putting of fresh bark
chippings onto shrubs. In his experience, they leach the nitrogen from
the soil as they rot down, though they do put it back *later*. In the
meantime, though, you can have some pretty sick shrubs. Of course, as
I said above, it may be a question of which bark to which shrubs and
all sorts of other factors. We haven't conducted trials and the Dr.
has. I'm afraid we're not going to, either, because we're rather fond
of our plants!

Ray has got it right. In composting in a pile or in a garden you need a
carbon to nitrogen ratio of 25 - 30 to 1 (25/1 or 30/1). Bacteria need
carbon and nitrogen, they will try to eat it. If the bacteria are
"eating" organic material with a lot of carbon and not much nitrogen,
that nitrogen won't be available until the food source is gone and the
bacteria die, relaeasing their nitrogen as aminoacids --- ammonia and
organic acids. The ammonia then gets converted by other bacteria into
NO3, which the plants can use.

Let it Rot!: The Gardener's Guide to Composting (Third Edition)
(Storey's Down-to-Earth Guides)
by Stu Campbell

http://www.amazon.com/Let-Rot-Compos...580170234/ref=
sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294901182&sr=1-1

p.39

Compostable Material Average C/N

Alder or ash leaves ............................ 25

Grass clippings ................................ 25

Leguminous plants (peas,
beans,soybeans) ............................. 15

Manure with bedding ........................... 23

Manure ....................................... 15

Oak leaves .................................... 50

Pine needles .............................. 60-100

Sawdust................................. 150-500

Straw, cornstalks and cobs .................. 50-100

Vegetable trimmings ........................... 25
Aged Chicken Manure**........................* 7
Alfalfa ................................................ 12
Newspaper........................................ 175
-------
also see

http://www.composting101.com/c-n-ratio.html

A Balancing Act (Carbon-to-Nitrogen Ratios)

and

http://www.homecompostingmadeeasy.com/carbonnitrogenratio.html

Aged Chicken Manure*** 7:1

Fresh manures are way to hot and can burn your plants and roots!

Leaves** 60-80:1
One of the most important ingredients for composting, especially
shredded or broken down (leaf mulch).

Coffee Grounds** 25:1

Woody chips & twigs** 700:1
Be sparing. Best use is small material at bottom of bin or pile.

Pine Needles** 80:1
Use sparingly. Very acidic and waxy; breaks down slowly.

ect.

"The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow." - Anon
--
- Billy

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