In article 742a6955-9310-4309-a876-
, says...

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...





On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a-
, says....

On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :

+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

* IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and
stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard
will have disintegrated.

that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly.

* Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only
required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth
(weeds, grass), killing them without *need for digging or weedkiller.

how long its needed depends on the weeds. The longer it lasts, the
less weeding there is to do. I like that!

*Sticks or
stones can keep it down ok.

* *They would; but a true permaculturist would be saving sticks and stones
for *longterm use (making swales, or drains). It also makes the

on some sites. I have more sticks than I can ever use

manure fulfill two functions, (a permaculture principle) while reducing
the required labour inputs from three to two (a permaculture and Janet
pinciple).

how does manure on card reduce labour over manure under card?

1 spread manure
2 spread card
3 fetch and spread stones/sticks on card to hold down card.

or

1 spread card
2 spread manure to hold down card.

* However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed
construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise.

* Janet.

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.

why do you say that?

Most forest edges are!

Blackthorn plants grow taller and live longer than blackberry plants.
Ultimately the blackthorn with grow tall and dense enough (it suckers) to
shade out the blackberry.

Janet.

In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5
@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:



On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.

Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable plantings. Which
forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light
levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK,
if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under
black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least
one layer.

It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher
light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons.

Janet.

On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:
In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5
@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...





On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says....

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.

* *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings.. Which
forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light
levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK,
if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under
black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least
one layer.

* *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher
light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons.

* *Janet.

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.


NT

I've been interested in domestic gardens in central and southern Portugal. It's clear that their pre-occupations are different - whereas we need to maximise light, they need to shade from sun. So a typical planting is a grape vine around the edge, a couple of citrus trees, and veg planted in the shade of the citrus.

If you're walking in the countryside you will come across little plots of broad beans planted in a corner of an orchard, well under the tree canopy.

I've seen similar in Greece - orchards of citrus underplanted with peppers and aubergines.

On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:
In article 742a6955-9310-4309-a876-
, says...





On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says....

On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a-
, says...

On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :

+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

* IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and
stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard
will have disintegrated.

that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly.

* Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only
required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth
(weeds, grass), killing them without *need for digging or weedkiller.

On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:



In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5
@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.

* *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which
forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light
levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK,
if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under
black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least
one layer.

* *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher
light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons.

* *Janet.

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.

NT

I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no-
one would do that, or even suggest it.

Every time I've seen apple trees planted, there's been a good bit of
space between the trees in the resulting canopy, space that lets quite
a lot of sun in.


NT

In article 1d8471e2-a1ab-416f-9eac-38275cda8448
@f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.

I'd be delighted to hear where the Scottish success stories are.
Did he obtain his academic qualification in the subject at a university,
in some different latitude ?

Janet (Scotland)

In article d2be985c-0ed8-4bbd-bc16-7ff2e6afca80
@z12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, says...

On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:



In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5
@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.

* *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which
forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light
levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK,
if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under
black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least
one layer.

* *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher
light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons.

* *Janet.

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.

NT

I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no-
one would do that, or even suggest it.

Perhaps you are not familiar with edible plant names. My post above
mentions black currants, which are unrelated to blackberries.

Every time I've seen apple trees planted, there's been a good bit of
space between the trees in the resulting canopy, space that lets quite
a lot of sun in.

Next time you look at an apple orchard in the UK, take a look at what
edible plants grow beneath the trees.
Janet

On Dec 28, 4:03*pm, Janet wrote:
In article d2be985c-0ed8-4bbd-bc16-7ff2e6afca80
@z12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, says...





On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:

In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5
@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.

* *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which
forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light
levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK,
if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under
black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least
one layer.

* *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher
light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons.

* *Janet.

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.

NT

I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no-
one would do that, or even suggest it.

* Perhaps you are not familiar with edible plant names.

childish

My post above
mentions black currants, which are unrelated to blackberries.

my mistake.


NT

Every time I've seen apple trees planted, there's been a good bit of
space between the trees in the resulting canopy, space that lets quite
a lot of sun in.

* Next time you look at an apple orchard in the UK, take a look at what
edible plants grow *beneath the trees.
* *Janet

In article 5ca9afaf-189f-4962-8ce0-
, says...

On Dec 28, 4:03*pm, Janet wrote:
In article d2be985c-0ed8-4bbd-bc16-7ff2e6afca80
@z12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, says...





On Dec 28, 11:09*am, NT wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:34*am, Janet wrote:

In article 509dcd5a-1351-4efb-8032-f9e30f6adbf5
@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.

* *Permaculture is about creating permanent, sustainable *plantings. Which
forest edge never is in UK latitudes, because we have relatively low light
levels and just one relatively short frost-free growing season. In the UK,
if you plant permaculture layers (something like, leaf perennials, under
black currants, under apple trees) shade will eventually defeat at least
one layer.

* *It does work where it was designed for.. in countries with much higher
light levels and no frosts or a different pattern of growing seasons.

* *Janet.

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.

NT

I also notice you talk about planting under blackberries. I hope no-
one would do that, or even suggest it.

* Perhaps you are not familiar with edible plant names.

childish

My post above
mentions black currants, which are unrelated to blackberries.

my mistake.

Indeed.

On Dec 28, 3:55*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1d8471e2-a1ab-416f-9eac-38275cda8448
@f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...

I spoke to a permaculture professor about this, he says there are a
number of successful permaculture plantings in UK, and even in
Scotland. I believe him.

*I'd be delighted to hear where the Scottish success stories are.
*Did he obtain his academic qualification in the subject at a university,
in *some different latitude ?

* Janet (Scotland)

Maybe when I next see him I'll ask where the success stories are.


NT