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The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
On Fri, 16 May 2003 16:02:27 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote: "Malcolm" wrote in message news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews. .. That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol Jim has a great sense of humor! Hell he sure has me fooled. You just have to lighten up so you can appreciate it :-) None lighter then me, my life here is one big party, that;s what I thought usenet was for, to enjoy oneself? I personally try to find humor in everything. I normally find my humour has to come from something living, at least! I just like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing at nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. :)~ You don't need an excuse to laugh, hell if we all done it more, we'd be much better off. -- So, you dont like reasoned, well thought out, civil debate? I understand. /´¯/) /¯../ /..../ /´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸ /'/.../..../......./¨¯\ ('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...') \.................'...../ ''...\.......... _.·´ \..............( \.............\.. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Peter Ashby writes
I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they have to deal with. Pests not having been blitzed with nasty 'chemicals'. There have been many studies to show that when plants are attacked by pests, levels of toxins rise significantly. Even better if one is attacked, it notifies others by emitting signalling vapours resulting in unattacked plants jacking their toxin level up even though they are not being attacked (yet). The diversion of energy into toxins slows plant growth and it is believed (like strongly) that this is one reason why fungicide treated plants yield more than untreated even in the absence of disease. Given that many toxins taste bad (bitter and so on) this may be one reason why 'typical' organic veg are reputed taste stronger than non- organic. For example mustard oil (a horribly carcinogenic and toxic brassica toxin) does taste like very strong mustard. But of course 'natural' pesticides must be good for you compared with 'chemical' pesticides. Personally I doubt it. Whenever they are tested for some reason, they are truly nasty and wouldn't pass the initial screening for a pesticide. In the case of potato and celery, disease resistant varieties have been produced that turned out to be actually toxic. Fortunately these were rapidly withdrawn. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they have to deal with. See how tender trees raised in protected allotments get hammered by rabbits when put out. Given a few seasons in the weather they are much more able to tough it out. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In article ,
Oz wrote: . In the case of potato and celery, disease resistant varieties have been produced that turned out to be actually toxic. Fortunately these were rapidly withdrawn. Does this apply to plants prone to fungus as well like gooseberries with milldew? |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Peter Ashby" wrote in message ... In article , Oz wrote: Either the tests are wrong, or plants are just as dangerous as the man-made chemicals you complain about and are actually more dangerous than ones that havent been shown to cause cancer. Indeed. I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they have to deal with. Pests not having been blitzed with nasty 'chemicals'. But of course 'natural' pesticides must be good for you compared with 'chemical' pesticides. Of course, as you say they are 'natural' and therefore not made of chemicals, and secondly since they havent been created for profit they must be good for you. -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Robert Seago writes
In article , Oz wrote: . In the case of potato and celery, disease resistant varieties have been produced that turned out to be actually toxic. Fortunately these were rapidly withdrawn. Does this apply to plants prone to fungus as well like gooseberries with milldew? I've no idea, and I doubt anyone else has. Mostly plant toxins are unknown until people are made ill, and even then it needs to be enough (ill or dead) to trigger an investigation. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Robert Seago wrote in message ... I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they have to deal with. See how tender trees raised in protected allotments get hammered by rabbits when put out. Given a few seasons in the weather they are much more able to tough it out. Huh? Older trees (or at least the parts of older trees that a rabbit can reach) seem to be much less palatable to rabbits than younger trees, but what has this to do with 'protected allotments' and how on earth do you think that a tree can ever 'tough it out' against rabbit incisors? -- Anton |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Michelle Fulton" wrote in message .com... "Malcolm" wrote in message news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews... That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol Jim has a great sense of humor! You just have to lighten up so you can appreciate it :-) I personally try to find humor in everything. I just like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing at nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. :)~ Put a mobile 'phone earphone and microphone on and you can go around laughing and talking to yourself to your hearts content. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
On Sat, 17 May 2003 07:41:38 +0100, "Hämisch Macbeth"
wrote: "Michelle Fulton" wrote in message y.com... "Malcolm" wrote in message news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews... That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol Jim has a great sense of humor! You just have to lighten up so you can appreciate it :-) I personally try to find humor in everything. I just like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing at nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. :)~ Put a mobile 'phone earphone and microphone on and you can go around laughing and talking to yourself to your hearts content. Jim obviously already does that, he has some fooled. -- So, you dont like reasoned, well thought out, civil debate? I understand. /´¯/) /¯../ /..../ /´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸ /'/.../..../......./¨¯\ ('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...') \.................'...../ ''...\.......... _.·´ \..............( \.............\.. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:0162a5b6292500f2d55de2ca59c76e44@TeraNews... On Thu, 15 May 2003 16:24:05 GMT, "Michelle Fulton" wrote: "Malcolm" wrote in message news:f3cdf9dde3cec80908c88c978bc18fd8@TeraNews. .. That's naive in the least. So you think the sprayer should be masked and protected up to the hilt when spraying it, yet cannot see the effect of those toxins once it has been sprayed, some of which stay around for a year or more? Probably a bit of naivety involved, but I think there is more danger inhaling the stuff, and I'm not really sure how much of it ends up on my dinner plate, what with rain, factory washing, me washing and the plant enzymes destroying it..... That's great, you know the facts, and you base your decision on that. This is all we ask, the chance for us all to do the same. We are being pumped full of this junk, which big business claims is safe, don't worry, yet many of us do have genuine concerns. You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk, killing insects etc. When a random sample of around 50 of these chemicals was tested to the same standards as man-made pesticides, 50% of them were found to be toxic, in fact *much more* toxic than would be allowed for man-made chemicals. Thus the man made pesticides about which you complain are less toxic than half these naturally ocurring chemicals. You complain about 'junk' when you refer to man-made chemicals that have undergone rigorous testing, yet you eat plants full of hundreds of untested, probably more dangerous chemicals, with no worries. -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In article , Tumbleweed fromnews@myso
ckstumbleweed.freeserve.co.uk writes You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk What news on soya milk would that be? -- Paul Flackett Remove _bra to reply by e-mail. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Victor Meldrew writes
What news on soya milk would that be? Some quotes: 1) From Oz, but quoting Torsten, on degradeability of glyphosate protection genes: ================================================== ===== From: Oz ) Subject: Genetically engineered food Newsgroups: alt.agriculture.misc, alt.sustainable.agriculture, sci.agriculture View this article only Date: 1997/10/09 In article , Torsten Brinch - c.dk writes Nice flower you have there Oz. Natural? Sorry to disturb, while you are making these important points. A news item, that ticked in. Really nothing, just Madness. Really good stuff. It shows that (despite apprearances ho, ho) Torsten is still a logical scientist (at least on occasiona.) :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 40 CFR Part 180 [OPP-300552; FRL-5745-2] RIN 2070-AB78 NB Snips all over the place. Both variants of the GOX protein (GOX and GOXv247) are rapidly degraded in simulated gastric fluid (GF) and simulated intestinal fluid (IF). After a fifteen-second incubation in GF, both variants have less than 90% of their initial protein epitopes by western blot analysis. Enzyme activity loss is also greater than 90% in both GOX variants when assayed after a 1-minute incubation in GF. Similar results are seen in simulated IF. Western blot assays show that both variants are greater than 90% degraded by 30-second incubation in IF. However, the enzyme activity assays show that the GOX activity lasts longer in IF than variant GOXv247. After a 10-minute IF incubation, the activity decreased to about 48% of initial for GOX whereas GOXv247 was already greater than 90% inactive. Two findings, found in the in vitro digestibility studies, that are remarkable a GOXv247 displays a more rapid degradation in the IF compared to unaltered GOX, apparently due to the single amino acid substitutions; and antibody recognition is lost prior to a significant loss of enzyme activity indicating that western blots may not always accurately track functional protein degradation. OK, so it's very quickly and readily digested. I am hardly amazed. The acute oral toxicity test of bacterially-derived GOX and GOXv247 proteins showed no test substance related deaths at doses of 91.3 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg) and 104 greek-mg/kg respectively. Expression data on the GOX protein expressed in corn grains ranges from undetectable levels to a high of 11.70 micro grams per gram (mg/g) freshweight. This indicates that it would require 8,547 kg corn grain per kg bodyweight to receive the 100 mg/kg dose that was administered to the mice. OK, it's highly non-toxic as well as rapidly degraded. Hey, what more do you want? Heck the estrogens in the soya are probably thousands (maybe more) of times more hazardous. Seems like Oz & Tracy were pretty well spot on except we didn't assume quite such a spectacularly safe product. Thanks Torsten, you are a gentleman. This has progressed the knowledge in the group. ============================================ -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Victor Meldrew writes
What news on soya milk would that be? Warnings from the UK Food Agency. But just for fun here's totsten's bit on soya toxicology. ============================== From: Torsten Brinch ) Search Result 7 Subject: The fake persuaders - Corporations are inventing people to rubbish their opponents on the internet Newsgroups: sci.agriculture View: Complete Thread (58 articles) Original Format Date: 2002-05-28 15:34:58 PST On Tue, 28 May 2002 18:57:20 +0200, Torsten Brinch wrote: On Tue, 28 May 2002 09:40:59 -0400, "Tracy Aquilla" wrote: Where is the proof that soya is safe? Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These"antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances. Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation. However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not completely eliminated. Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable. When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth. Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy reproductive system. Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in phytic acid. Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation, pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems. Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food. Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States. Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years, the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods. The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers. Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine, the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products. Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items, including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high temperatures to produce high protein powder. This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products. Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in adults. Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose, which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas. Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk, high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets tend to be thin and scrawny. Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective. Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on cholesterol levels. Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect. Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there. The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial product. While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins, anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses, the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk. Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system, have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A (retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet. These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase requirements for vitamins B12 and D. Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates, enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat food as "highly digestible" Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems. The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of 1995. ============================================== -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Oz" wrote in message ... Victor Meldrew writes What news on soya milk would that be? Warnings from the UK Food Agency. also on Radio four on Saturday morning they had the farming programme looking at gm soya in Argentina. The Argentinians give free soya to the poor and the BBC produced this long list of dangers from eating soya, especially for the young, the male, females of breeding age and damned near everyone else as well. I am afraid it amused me no end, I await the repost of the vegetarian pro-soya tendancy Jim Webster |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Fortunately: : 1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over time. : 2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it fell on) and so : goes when the leaf senesces. : 3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest intervals. : 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. This is : very good for those who apply them. ``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' - http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp...5&nav=2gQcFfJ3 http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/.../shoppers.html ....gives some details relating to the risks - ranking produce according to their freedom from known human carcinogens, nervous system poisons, and endocrine system disrupters. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: There have been many studies to show that when plants are attacked by : pests, levels of toxins rise significantly. : Even better if one is attacked, it notifies others by emitting : signalling vapours resulting in unattacked plants jacking their toxin : level up even though they are not being attacked (yet). : The diversion of energy into toxins slows plant growth and it is : believed (like strongly) that this is one reason why fungicide treated : plants yield more than untreated even in the absence of disease. : Given that many toxins taste bad (bitter and so on) this may be one : reason why 'typical' organic veg are reputed taste stronger than non- : organic. For example mustard oil (a horribly carcinogenic and toxic : brassica toxin) does taste like very strong mustard. The brassica toxins normally protect against cancer. They are the reason broccoli and watercress protect against cancer. Mustard oil - and especially heated mustard oil - in excess can cause cancer - e.g.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract ....but smaller doses are protective - e.g.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract ....and the overall effect of brassica toxins on cancer is overwhelmingly negative. The problem with the toxins in mustard and its relatives are usually gastro-intestinal irritation, thyroid problems and possibly anaemia - rather than cancer. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Tim Tyler writes
``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' Wives with prostate cancer, eh? Like, really believable. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Tim Tyler writes
The brassica toxins normally protect against cancer. They are the reason broccoli and watercress protect against cancer. Mustard oil - and especially heated mustard oil - in excess can cause cancer - e.g.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...ed&list_uids=1 2693827&dopt=Abstract ...but smaller doses are protective - e.g.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...ed&list_uids=1 0025884&dopt=Abstract ...and the overall effect of brassica toxins on cancer is overwhelmingly negative. The problem with the toxins in mustard and its relatives are usually gastro-intestinal irritation, thyroid problems and possibly anaemia - rather than cancer. Exactly, nasty compounds. They would be discarded at first screening as pesticides. Carcinogenic. Far too toxic. Although at the correct rate undoubtedly an active insecticide (and probably mammalicide, too). -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message
... In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote: : Fortunately: : 1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over time. : 2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it fell on) and so : goes when the leaf senesces. : 3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest intervals. : 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. This is : very good for those who apply them. ``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' - http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp...5&nav=2gQcFfJ3 That page specifically references methyl bromide. This thread is about glyphosate. -- Old Codger e-mail use reply to field |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:143868
The message from Tim Tyler contains these words: A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' Women in USA get prostate cancer? I blame GM foods. Janet |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message ... Women in USA get prostate cancer? I blame GM foods. LOL :-)) Good one! M |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote: : Fortunately: : 1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over time. : 2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it fell on) and so : goes when the leaf senesces. : 3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest intervals. : 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. This is : very good for those who apply them. ``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' LOL!!! Must be powerful stuff. Do the men go through the menopause as well? -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Victor Meldrew" wrote in message
... In article , Tumbleweed fromnews@myso ckstumbleweed.freeserve.co.uk writes You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk What news on soya milk would that be? The report that the babies of vegans fed on it have a 5x incidence of genital defects compared to those given cows milk. -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
... "Oz" wrote in message ... Victor Meldrew writes What news on soya milk would that be? Warnings from the UK Food Agency. also on Radio four on Saturday morning they had the farming programme looking at gm soya in Argentina. The Argentinians give free soya to the poor and the BBC produced this long list of dangers from eating soya, especially for the young, the male, females of breeding age and damned near everyone else as well. I am afraid it amused me no end, I await the repost of the vegetarian pro-soya tendancy Jim Webster Its natural, so it must be good for you? -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tumbleweed" wrote in message ... Its natural, so it must be good for you? so is uranium and evolution people who believe in bizarre high oestrogen diets are going to have reduced breeding and will slowly disappear, thus raising the average IQ a few more points Jim Webster |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tumbleweed" wrote in message ... "Victor Meldrew" wrote in message ... In article , Tumbleweed fromnews@myso ckstumbleweed.freeserve.co.uk writes You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk What news on soya milk would that be? The report that the babies of vegans fed on it have a 5x incidence of genital defects compared to those given cows milk. the only problem with that is that to get a proper comparison you would have to forcibly replace cows milk with soya milk for the children of normal parents. After all anyone brought up on a vegan diet is going to be at risk of more problems than mere soya Jim Webster -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In article , Tumbleweed
writes "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote: : Fortunately: : 1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over time. : 2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it fell on) and so : goes when the leaf senesces. : 3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest intervals. : 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. This is : very good for those who apply them. ``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' LOL!!! Must be powerful stuff. Do the men go through the menopause as well? Yes, all men do and in a few sad cases it lasts from cradle to coffin! ;-) -- Five Cats |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In uk.rec.gardening Old Codger wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote: : In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote: : : 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. : : This is very good for those who apply them. : : ``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer : : A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives : are more likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.'' : : - http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp...5&nav=2gQcFfJ3 : That page specifically references methyl bromide. : This thread is about glyphosate. The post I responded to was about pesticides. Methyl bromide is used to control insects, nematodes, weeds, and pathogens. It seems relevant of a thread with "The dangers of weed killers" in its title. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote:
: You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and : fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as : mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk, killing insects : etc. : When a random sample of around 50 of these chemicals was tested to the same : standards as man-made pesticides, 50% of them were found to be toxic, in : fact *much more* toxic than would be allowed for man-made chemicals. Thus : the man made pesticides about which you complain are less toxic than half : these naturally ocurring chemicals. You complain about 'junk' when you refer : to man-made chemicals that have undergone rigorous testing, yet you eat : plants full of hundreds of untested, probably more dangerous chemicals, with : no worries. It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. Specific enzymes exist to detoxify plant toxins that were naturally in our diet - and they have worked well enough to get us this far. The same is not true of man-made insecticides, pesticides and fungicides. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote: : You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and : fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as : mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk, killing insects : etc. : When a random sample of around 50 of these chemicals was tested to the same : standards as man-made pesticides, 50% of them were found to be toxic, in : fact *much more* toxic than would be allowed for man-made chemicals. Thus : the man made pesticides about which you complain are less toxic than half : these naturally ocurring chemicals. You complain about 'junk' when you refer : to man-made chemicals that have undergone rigorous testing, yet you eat : plants full of hundreds of untested, probably more dangerous chemicals, with : no worries. It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. And plants have evolved to produce better toxins - because they don't want to be eaten. To counter this humans have bred plants that are rather better to eat than the wild ones and developed technologies to make farming and food processing more efficient. Specific enzymes exist to detoxify plant toxins that were naturally in our diet - and they have worked well enough to get us this far. No they haven't. There are 6 billion people on this planet - without efficient agriculture, i.e. depending on our "natural wits (and enzymes)" there would be at most a few hundred million. The same is not true of man-made insecticides, pesticides and fungicides. Of course not - they've not evolved to harm anything that eats them, indeed they've been designed not to. All in all it's better to eat meat - animals generally defend themselves by running away rather than producing toxins, so all you need is a means of catching them. Michael Saunby |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote: It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. no, our digestive tracts have evolved to cope with SOME natural toxins. Also the plants and their toxins are still evolving It is a bit tricky for, for example, Europeans to have evolved to cope with Soya.Biologically we have not had time JimWebster |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Tim Tyler writes
Methyl bromide is used to control insects, nematodes, weeds, and pathogens. It seems relevant of a thread with "The dangers of weed killers" in its title. About as relevant as the use of arsenic to cure syphilis. In any case you also haven't read the subject box. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
Tim Tyler writes
Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. Specific enzymes exist to detoxify plant toxins that were naturally in our diet - and they have worked well enough to get us this far. The same is not true of man-made insecticides, pesticides and fungicides. Toxins are toxins, no matter where they come from. The biochemical degradations pathways are the same. Note that unbiodegradeable pesticides have been banned for decades, since the DDT scare regulations in the early 70's. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote: : You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and : fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as : mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk, killing insects : etc. : When a random sample of around 50 of these chemicals was tested to the same : standards as man-made pesticides, 50% of them were found to be toxic, in : fact *much more* toxic than would be allowed for man-made chemicals. Thus : the man made pesticides about which you complain are less toxic than half : these naturally ocurring chemicals. You complain about 'junk' when you refer : to man-made chemicals that have undergone rigorous testing, yet you eat : plants full of hundreds of untested, probably more dangerous chemicals, with : no worries. It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. In which case we probably don't regard the food source as toxic at all. Or not - in which case the toxins remain toxic to humans, and we presumably have learned to avoid ingestion, or to process the food so as to reduce the toxicity to levels we consider acceptable. Similar to how we might deal with foods we know to have been treated with 'artificial' toxins, really. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote: It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. no, our digestive tracts have evolved to cope with SOME natural toxins. Also the plants and their toxins are still evolving Er, surely a toxin is only a toxin if our digestion can't cope with it and it poisons us. Anything we can successfully digest and either metabolise or excrete is, almost by definition, not a toxin. -- Chris Green ) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
BAC writes
In which case we probably don't regard the food source as toxic at all. Or not - in which case the toxins remain toxic to humans, and we presumably have learned to avoid ingestion, or to process the food so as to reduce the toxicity to levels we consider acceptable. Similar to how we might deal with foods we know to have been treated with 'artificial' toxins, really. So far as I am aware allowed pesticide levels in treated produce are not related to subsequent treatment by the purchaser (which may, or may not, reduce levels further). Allowed levels are set by no adverse effect levels found in animal studies after multi-generational trials, divided by 10 or 100. Note that the amount of produce that exceeds the ADI when tested is minute, and the 'traces' found and usually quoted are more a symptom of the hypersensitivity of modern testing than anything else, usually way below the ADI. Further the ADI is in essence set by the maximum amount of that produce a consumer could theoretically eat. There are stories about excessive proposed intakes such as the one where the proposed possible carrot intake was close to 100% of diet (they might be carrot loving veggies...), and was well over the toxic intake for the carrots themselves. In this situation you wouldn't be harmed by the pesticide, but would be killed by the carrots. -- Oz This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious. Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted. |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
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The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"Oz" wrote in message
... Tim Tyler writes Methyl bromide is used to control insects, nematodes, weeds, and pathogens. It seems relevant of a thread with "The dangers of weed killers" in its title. About as relevant as the use of arsenic to cure syphilis. In any case you also haven't read the subject box. Blimey! I agree with you Oz. Twice in one week :-) -- Old Codger e-mail use reply to field |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote: It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. no, our digestive tracts have evolved to cope with SOME natural toxins. Also the plants and their toxins are still evolving Er, surely a toxin is only a toxin if our digestion can't cope with it and it poisons us. Anything we can successfully digest and either metabolise or excrete is, almost by definition, not a toxin. in which case Glyphosphate, the start of this thread, is not a toxin. I think we have to be careful just how we bandy such words about. If I remember correctly, asprin is poison for cats, if so, then Asprin is a toxin. Trouble is we are all sloppy and casual and neglect to put in the full details. Perhaps if we say plants produce an array of substances, many of them toxic in varying degrees to many species. But the obvious thing to do is eat more meat. Once it's been killed most of your problems with regard to its defence mechanisms are over :-)) Jim Webster -- Chris Green ) |
The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
"BAC" wrote in message ...
"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ... In uk.rec.gardening Tumbleweed wrote: : You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and : fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as : mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk, killing insects : etc. : When a random sample of around 50 of these chemicals was tested to the same : standards as man-made pesticides, 50% of them were found to be toxic, in : fact *much more* toxic than would be allowed for man-made chemicals. Thus : the man made pesticides about which you complain are less toxic than half : these naturally ocurring chemicals. You complain about 'junk' when you refer : to man-made chemicals that have undergone rigorous testing, yet you eat : plants full of hundreds of untested, probably more dangerous chemicals, with : no worries. It makes reasonable sense: Our digestive tract has evolved to cope with natural toxins. In which case we probably don't regard the food source as toxic at all. Or not - in which case the toxins remain toxic to humans, and we presumably have learned to avoid ingestion, or to process the food so as to reduce the toxicity to levels we consider acceptable. Similar to how we might deal with foods we know to have been treated with 'artificial' toxins, really. I am looking for a weed killer that will not be harmful to my dog |
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