The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article ,
Jim Webster wrote:
, many of
them toxic in varying degrees to many species.
But the obvious thing to do is eat more meat. Once it's been killed most of
your problems with regard to its defence mechanisms are over :-))

Jim Webster
The posting of a livestock farmer :-)

Regards

Bob

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article ,
Tim Tyler wrote:


Strawberries are one of the most pesticide-infected types of produce.
They don't have natural toxins in. They are "designed" to be eaten by
mammals like us. The fungicides sprayed on strawberries are toxic to
animals like us. http://www.pesticideinfo.org/PCW/DS.jsp?sk='1016'
lists the crap sprayed on strawberries. There can be no contest here.
--
And I manage to grow them without a hint of pesticides.

Regards

Bob

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article ,
Michael Saunby wrote:
..

Strawberries aren't meat. I rest my case. Try bacon.

Michael Saunby
It's also high in carcinogens from the smoking process.

Regards

Bob

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article ,
BAC wrote:

In which case we probably don't regard the food source as toxic at all. Or
not - in which case the toxins remain toxic to humans, and we presumably
have learned to avoid ingestion, or to process the food so as to reduce the
toxicity to levels we consider acceptable. Similar to how we might deal with
foods we know to have been treated with 'artificial' toxins, really.

TBH there will have been no pressure to make us more able to cope
withthese toxins, unless they had been potent enough to kill off
individuals before they breed.

Regards

Bob

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Tim Tyler writes
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes

:By contrast, the artificial toxins have been designed to be tasteless and
:invisible to consumers.

: One thing I am certain about, and that is that smell and taste features
: absolutely nowhere in anyone's selection procedure for pesticides. The
: infinitesimal residues (if any) left by the time you eat it are only
: detectable (if at all) by hugely sophisticated analytical equipment.

: Just to give you some idea I have visited a site where they could test
: at these levels. They had three areas, with separate doors to the
: outside and staff from each area were not allowed to touch each other
: until their shift had finished. This was because if one of the 'low
: level detection' area walked through the 'high level' area (where the
: test applications were made) then they would totally trash the analysis
: just from particles they picked up walking through.

: As any farmer would tell you, many sprays smell 'rather strongly'.

: So you are quite incorrect.

Reading comprehension problems? Or are you just a troll?

Ahhh, you don;t like being wrong then?

:Strawberries are one of the most pesticide-infected types of produce.
:They don't have natural toxins in.

: I very much doubt that. When I grew them nothing much but the odd slug
: ate them, which is always a giveaway.

I presume you were growing them on your own private planet - where
there are no birds.

Never had a problem with birds, the dogs ate them avidly though.

:They are "designed" to be eaten by mammals like us.

: The fruits maybe. That doesn't mean they aren't toxic. I expect there is
: a fair bit of oxalic acid in them just the same.

The most toxic bit is probably the seeds - but very few of them are
digested.

Maybe, maybe not, but I'll bet there is oxalic acid in them.

:The fungicides sprayed on strawberries are toxic to
:animals like us.

: Fungicides are toxic to fungi.
: That's why they are called fungicides.

Because something is toxic to one kingdom that doesn't mean it
isn't toxic to other ones.

Pretty well everything is toxic at some level, even water, so that's
unimportant.

The question is how big a difference in toxicity is there?
For insecticides it is usually very wide, that's why there is an OP that
kills mites (varoah) but not the bees.

For weedkillers the safety margin is typically very wide, on account of
plants being very different to humans, and for fungi it's much the same.

Of course organic growers are restricted to using nasty heavy metals
(like copper) at high doses to control fungi and these rather
unselective pesticides certainly don't have good safety margins.

Let's take an old fungicide (from the early 80's) propiconazole:
[Because it's one we used a lot]

The full rate was about 250gm/Ha (although like many we saved money by
using half rates) or 25 milligrams/sqm.

A decent crop of wheat will give 800gm /sqm, but most of the spray will
hit the leaves (which is intended) so let's say 8 milligrm hits the ears
(a tad optimistic).

That means we are applying 10mg/kg of wheat.

Now I can't remember if you were allowed to spray wheat in ear with this
product, but let's say you did, and you broke all the regulations and
sprayed just before the combine went in (totally pointless, but makes
the maths easier). Then you get the wheat (just sprayed, remember) and
eat it. How much would you need to reach the no effect level?

Well for dogs the no effect level is 1.9mg/kg bodyweight.
So for a 75kg human that's about 140mg so you would have to eat 14kg of
this wheat daily to reach the no effect level. That's a heck of a lot of
wheat, you couldn't remotely do it. Further you would have to eat all
the husk because the vast majority of the spray (well over 90%) will be
on the husk as it can't reach the grain. If you made it into flour (when
all the outer coats of the grain are also removed) then the level would
be even lower still.

The allowed daily intake (which has safety margins on safety margins,
and why not) is 0.04 mg/kg bw. That's 3mg/day. Even that requires you to
eat all the wheat and husk from 3kg of wheat off this just this minute
sprayed field, I doubt you could do that, either. That's how stunningly
safe fungicides are typically.

Compare that to an organic approved dose of copper oxychloride at about
10kg/Ha (or more). That is it's applied at some 40+ times the dose of
propiconazole. It's so old it doesn't have an ADI or a no effect level
quoted. It is, however, non-biodegradeable, accumulative and very poorly
excreted. The toxic doses are given though.

For the copper: 800mg/kg (LD50) or enough to kill over 100 people/Ha.
Propiconazole: 1517mg/kg (LD50) or enough to kill 1 person/Ha.

but propiconazole is NOT accumulative, IS biodegradeable and IS
excreted, unlike copper oxychloride.

Don't even DARE to look at the organic approved insecticdes. I would
refuse to use them they are so dangerous to the spray operator.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Robert Seago writes

On strawberries:

And I manage to grow them without a hint of pesticides.

I believe you, I doubt you are growing a 25ac field of them though.

The dynamics of pest infestation are quite interesting.

Typically, when a plant emerges, there are few pathogens about.

Then a race develops.
A few residual pathogenic spores (or insects) must find a susceptible
plant before they expire (the spore/insect that is), and mount a
successful attack on the plant.

From observations at the field scale before effective pesticides were
available the 'typical' success rate for these initial foci varied from
under 1 to 10/Ha.

So if you have a field in the 2-10 Ha range you are guaranteed to get
infected. If you are a gardener with 10 sqm (1/1000th Ha) then you would
be very unlucky to get hit.

Typically the foci spread pretty rapidly, depending on the number of
'offspring' and the generation time. So in a few weeks one pest has
become thousands (or millions) and the foci are a metre or two across
(which is when you notice them).

At this point the general infection level jumps up a gear if the pest
can spread by air. Generally insects spread much more slowly than fungi.

Even so, your garden plot may well miss the next infection cycle. This
is particularly true for insects, because most can home in on the smell
of host plants. They are MUCH more attracted to 25ac of crop than 10 sqm
of garden plot (which they may well not even detect). For fungi, you are
now getting quite likely to be attacked.

The next infection cycle pretty well trashes the field if not
controlled. The crop is a write off, and you just made a big loss.

Your garden is probably still OK, and although eventually probably gets
attacked, by then the season is over, or nearly so.

Never confuse the rate of pest attack between field scale and garden
scale.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Fri, 23 May 2003 08:41:21 +0100, Oz
wrote:

Robert Seago writes

On strawberries:

And I manage to grow them without a hint of pesticides.

I believe you, I doubt you are growing a 25ac field of them though.

The dynamics of pest infestation are quite interesting.

Typically, when a plant emerges, there are few pathogens about.

Then a race develops.
A few residual pathogenic spores (or insects) must find a susceptible
plant before they expire (the spore/insect that is), and mount a
successful attack on the plant.

From observations at the field scale before effective pesticides were
available the 'typical' success rate for these initial foci varied from
under 1 to 10/Ha.

So if you have a field in the 2-10 Ha range you are guaranteed to get
infected. If you are a gardener with 10 sqm (1/1000th Ha) then you would
be very unlucky to get hit.

Typically the foci spread pretty rapidly, depending on the number of
'offspring' and the generation time. So in a few weeks one pest has
become thousands (or millions) and the foci are a metre or two across
(which is when you notice them).

At this point the general infection level jumps up a gear if the pest
can spread by air. Generally insects spread much more slowly than fungi.

Even so, your garden plot may well miss the next infection cycle. This
is particularly true for insects, because most can home in on the smell
of host plants. They are MUCH more attracted to 25ac of crop than 10 sqm
of garden plot (which they may well not even detect). For fungi, you are
now getting quite likely to be attacked.

The next infection cycle pretty well trashes the field if not
controlled. The crop is a write off, and you just made a big loss.

Your garden is probably still OK, and although eventually probably gets
attacked, by then the season is over, or nearly so.

Never confuse the rate of pest attack between field scale and garden
scale.

How tall the tales.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Robert Seago" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael Saunby wrote:
.

Strawberries aren't meat. I rest my case. Try bacon.

Michael Saunby
It's also high in carcinogens from the smoking process.


So? Don't smoke (your bacon) if you fear it's bad for your health.

Anything wrong with green bacon?


Michael Saunby

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
A toxin is something toxic which poisons us. If it doesn't poison us
(i.e. is successfully managed by our digestion) then it's not a toxin.

That's something else. That is 'detoxifies'.

No, you're just avoiding the issue. If it doesn't poison us it
*isn't* a toxin.

Mind you - don't forget the dose.
Very few things are completely non-toxic - not even water.

Quite, but that's not a very helpful way to go is it, if your argument
is that *everything* is a toxin then trying to produce weedkillers (or
whatever) that aren't toxic is going to be a bit difficult.

--
Chris Green )

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Robert Seago" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Webster wrote:
, many of
them toxic in varying degrees to many species.
But the obvious thing to do is eat more meat. Once it's been killed most
of
your problems with regard to its defence mechanisms are over :-))

Jim Webster
The posting of a livestock farmer :-)


to right

you are what you eat, plenty of vegetables makes you a fat bullock
:-))
Jim Webster

Regards

Bob

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article ,
"Michael Saunby" wrote:

"Robert Seago" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael Saunby wrote:
.

Strawberries aren't meat. I rest my case. Try bacon.

Michael Saunby
It's also high in carcinogens from the smoking process.


So? Don't smoke (your bacon) if you fear it's bad for your health.

Anything wrong with green bacon?

It doesn't taste as good.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Tim Tyler writes
In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message
...

: Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins.

: so you don't eat peppers?

I often go easy on many pungent fruit and vegetables.

I'm not sure what your point was - since the fruiting bodies of
many peppers are neither particularly pungent nor terribly toxic.

Jalapenos are most definitely highly 'pungent', but not toxic.

Red kidney beans (a tad undercooked) are not at all pungent, and very
toxic.

Taste, and bitterness, are a crude and fallible test for toxicity.
Much better to know what is and isn't particularly toxic.


Another survival strategy, followed by rats, for example, is to eat small
amounts of a wide variety of foodstuffs, rather than concentrate on large
amounts of one particular foodstuff. This is thought to reduce the risk of
ingesting a fatal dose of toxin.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes

:Numerous pesticides are concentrated in animal fat.

: No, just DDT.

Perhaps you'd like to broaden that to all the chlorinated hydrocarbon
pesticides - methoxychlor, aldrin, dieldrin, chlordane, toxaphene,
endrin, heptachlor, lindane, etc?

For example, I just cited a paper showing pesticides based on
hexachlorocyclohexane isomers are also concentrated in animal fat.
[PMID: 11763262]

....and don't tell me these are more banned pesticides.

Some of them are still registered for use - e.g. in Canada.

: Halogenated hydrocarbons may be measured in concentrations of
: hundreds-fold greater than those in blood of the same individuals.''

: DDT, there you go. Banned in the early 70's.

Halogenated hydrocarbons covers a lot more than just DDT.

So much for your pesticides not being concentrated in animals thesis.

A major toxic pesticide, plainly concentrated in animal fat.

You will be permitted to aruge that DDT is not a relevant
pesticide when it disappears from our environment and soils.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:

: Beta-carotene (Vitamin A)
: Liver damage, yellowing of the skin (may also increase risk of lung
: cancer in smokers), birth defects

: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulate

Beta carotene is *not* vitamin A.

Excess beta carotene does not cause liver damage or birth defects.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes

:Warning people that many pesticides are not safe - and encouraging them
:to eat certified-organic produce - or at the very least wash their fruit.

: Washing has no effect.

Complete nonsense:

"
Rinsing with Tap Water
======================
Although it has been assumed for many years that rinsing fruits and
vegetable prior to consumption reduces the amounts of pesticide residues,
this anecdotal approach needed laboratory confirmation. There are numerous
studies in the scientific literature that have examined the effect of
washing produce to remove pesticide residues as a step in commercial crop
processing. These studies are of little practical use to the consumer who
wants to know what effect household preparation has upon reducing
pesticide residue levels. There are also a handful of studies that examine
the effects of washing as part of larger household preparation studies. In
most cases, however the sample sizes were too small to apply statistical
analysis (1).

In 1997 we initiated a research program whose objective was to examine the
effect that the simple household technique of rinsing with tap water would
have upon reducing pesticide residues in produce. A wide variety of crops
that contained residues were examined.

Residues of DDE, a metabolite of DDT, were also studied. Although many
persistent organohalogen pesticides (POPs), such as DDT, were banned for
use on food crops between 1972 and 1978 in the United States, they have
remained in the environment where they continue to be incorporated into
plant biomass (1).

Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water reduces
pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study also
shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a significant
role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the mechanical
action of rinsing (1).
"

- http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm

Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide residues
from the surface of produce.

Of course washing produce is also effective at reducing other forms
of food poisoning - e.g.:
http://outreach.missouri.edu/cmregio...g-produce.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Tim Tyler writes
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes

:Numerous pesticides are concentrated in animal fat.

: No, just DDT.

Perhaps you'd like to broaden that to all the chlorinated hydrocarbon
pesticides - methoxychlor, aldrin, dieldrin, chlordane, toxaphene,
endrin, heptachlor, lindane, etc?

Indeed, but like DDT these are all banned in the UK.

...and don't tell me these are more banned pesticides.

They are.

Some of them are still registered for use - e.g. in Canada.

I'm not in canada, I'm in the EC.

: Halogenated hydrocarbons may be measured in concentrations of
: hundreds-fold greater than those in blood of the same individuals.''

: DDT, there you go. Banned in the early 70's.

Halogenated hydrocarbons covers a lot more than just DDT.

All the persistent ones are banned for crops in any reasonable country.
Some may still be used for termite control, but few people eat wood.

So much for your pesticides not being concentrated in animals thesis.

Since the early 70's thats so for approved crop pesticides.
Your list are all pre-that and banned.
So you are still wrong.

A major toxic pesticide, plainly concentrated in animal fat.

You will be permitted to aruge that DDT is not a relevant
pesticide when it disappears from our environment and soils.

On the contrary, the fact that it is banned, and products with similar
characteristics are not approved, is more than enough.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Robert Seago" wrote in message
...
In article ,
BAC wrote:

In which case we probably don't regard the food source as toxic at all.
Or
not - in which case the toxins remain toxic to humans, and we presumably
have learned to avoid ingestion, or to process the food so as to reduce
the
toxicity to levels we consider acceptable. Similar to how we might deal
with
foods we know to have been treated with 'artificial' toxins, really.

TBH there will have been no pressure to make us more able to cope
withthese toxins, unless they had been potent enough to kill off
individuals before they breed.


I see what you mean, but a toxin does not have to be immediately fatal to
exert 'evolutionary' pressures. If it were to induce infertility, for
example, or increase the risk of birth defects, or debilitating illness, it
might well have eliminated 'bloodlines'.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
: In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: : "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...

: : Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins.
:
: : so you don't eat peppers?
:
: I often go easy on many pungent fruit and vegetables.
:
: I'm not sure what your point was - since the fruiting bodies of
: many peppers are neither particularly pungent nor terribly toxic.

: I think you better start doing some basic research, how pungent are red
: kidney beans

What are you on about now?

: on your taste bud and pungency test which are safest, red kidney beans or
: peppers?

I don't think I've ever eaten a raw red kidney bean.

Indeed, I avoid most large uncooked beans.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Michael Saunby" wrote in message
...

"Robert Seago" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael Saunby wrote:
.

Strawberries aren't meat. I rest my case. Try bacon.

Michael Saunby
It's also high in carcinogens from the smoking process.


So? Don't smoke (your bacon) if you fear it's bad for your health.

Anything wrong with green bacon?



If its turned green, it's probably gone off :-)

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Tim Tyler writes
Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water reduces
pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study also
shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a significant
role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the mechanical
action of rinsing (1).
"

- http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm

Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide residues
from the surface of produce.

No actual figures were given, which is very odd.

After all 'significantly reduced' in this context means a reduction from
100 parts to 95 parts, whilst for most people they would hope it means
to under 50%.

The UK food agency recently said it wasn't effective at reducing traces.

However it's worth washing to remove birdshit.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Mike Humberston wrote:

: If strawberries are supposed to be covered in fungicide then why
: is it that if I keep strawberries in my fridge for more than a few days
: they rapidly become covered in white fuzz?

Fungicides are not effective indefinitely.

Eventually the forces of decay win out.

Fungicides merely delay the process - but if the food is sold in
the interim they have served their purpose.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Robert Seago wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote:

: Strawberries are one of the most pesticide-infected types of produce.
: They don't have natural toxins in. They are "designed" to be eaten by
: mammals like us. The fungicides sprayed on strawberries are toxic to
: animals like us. http://www.pesticideinfo.org/PCW/DS.jsp?sk='1016'
: lists the crap sprayed on strawberries. There can be no contest here.
:
: And I manage to grow them without a hint of pesticides.

As do I.

That, buying organic and knowing your producer are some of the ways
of avoiding what was ranked as the most toxic, pesticide laden fruit -
in:

A Shopper's Guide to Pesticides in Produce
http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/.../Chapter2.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:

: Beta-carotene (Vitamin A)
: Liver damage, yellowing of the skin (may also increase risk of lung
: cancer in smokers), birth defects

: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulate

Beta carotene is *not* vitamin A.

Excess beta carotene does not cause liver damage or birth defects.

So how many consumers are harmed by pesticides in the UK each year? It's
bound to be a tiny fraction of the number that are harmed by their own
stupidity. Heck even being uneducated kills more people (the average life
expectancy for professionals is 7 years more than for manual workers).

You're stressing (which really does kill) over something that doesn't.
Though it's a common problem for those with certain political views -
folks with right wing politics live longer too :-)

I'd like to care, but unfortunately it's just not in my nature, though I
think you really should try and lighten up - I'm sure you'll live a longer
and happier life if you do. Add an education too and you might even live as
long, happy and healthy a life as many others here.

Michael Saunby

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In uk.rec.gardening Robert Seago wrote:
: BAC wrote:

: In which case we probably don't regard the food source as toxic at all. Or
: not - in which case the toxins remain toxic to humans, and we presumably
: have learned to avoid ingestion, or to process the food so as to reduce the
: toxicity to levels we consider acceptable. Similar to how we might deal with
: foods we know to have been treated with 'artificial' toxins, really.

: TBH there will have been no pressure to make us more able to cope
: withthese toxins, unless they had been potent enough to kill off
: individuals before they breed.

Not entirely accurate - since there's non-fatal damage which reduces
fertility before breeding - and parental care - to consider.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes


You will be permitted to aruge that DDT is not a relevant
pesticide when it disappears from our environment and soils.

interesting that some of the largest users of DDT were public health
authorities

Jim Webster

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"T N Nurse" wrote in message
...

So? Don't smoke (your bacon) if you fear it's bad for your health.

Anything wrong with green bacon?

It doesn't taste as good


depends how you are brought up. I never ate smoked bacon until I was over
twenty and was most surprised by the taste which I don't particularly care
for. it would be interesting to look at the figures, it may, to some extent,
be a regional thing in the UK

Jim Webster

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Fri, 23 May 2003 11:22:10 GMT, Tim Tyler wrote:

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes

:Warning people that many pesticides are not safe - and encouraging them
:to eat certified-organic produce - or at the very least wash their fruit.

: Washing has no effect.

Complete nonsense:

"
Rinsing with Tap Water
======================
Although it has been assumed for many years that rinsing fruits and
vegetable prior to consumption reduces the amounts of pesticide residues,
this anecdotal approach needed laboratory confirmation. There are numerous
studies in the scientific literature that have examined the effect of
washing produce to remove pesticide residues as a step in commercial crop
processing. These studies are of little practical use to the consumer who
wants to know what effect household preparation has upon reducing
pesticide residue levels. There are also a handful of studies that examine
the effects of washing as part of larger household preparation studies. In
most cases, however the sample sizes were too small to apply statistical
analysis (1).

In 1997 we initiated a research program whose objective was to examine the
effect that the simple household technique of rinsing with tap water would
have upon reducing pesticide residues in produce. A wide variety of crops
that contained residues were examined.

Residues of DDE, a metabolite of DDT, were also studied. Although many
persistent organohalogen pesticides (POPs), such as DDT, were banned for
use on food crops between 1972 and 1978 in the United States, they have
remained in the environment where they continue to be incorporated into
plant biomass (1).

Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water reduces
pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study also
shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a significant
role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the mechanical
action of rinsing (1).
"

- http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm

Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide residues
from the surface of produce.

Of course washing produce is also effective at reducing other forms
of food poisoning - e.g.:
http://outreach.missouri.edu/cmregio...g-produce.html

Interesting stuff, something I have often been concerned about, I
doubted the validity of a quick rinse and usually soak my hard fruits
for a few hours prior to washing, of course this is not possible with
soft fruit. I wondered about the effect of waxing on fruit, would this
not seal the crap in as well, I find some waxes need a quick soak in
the sink with a little detergent before coming off!


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:36:05 +0100, Oz
wrote:

Tim Tyler writes
Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water reduces
pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study also
shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a significant
role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the mechanical
action of rinsing (1).
"

- http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm

Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide residues
from the surface of produce.

No actual figures were given, which is very odd.

After all 'significantly reduced' in this context means a reduction from
100 parts to 95 parts, whilst for most people they would hope it means
to under 50%.

The UK food agency recently said it wasn't effective at reducing traces.

However it's worth washing to remove birdshit.

I seriously doubt you people would feed your own family on the junk
you produce?
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:43:40 +0100, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:

: Beta-carotene (Vitamin A)
: Liver damage, yellowing of the skin (may also increase risk of lung
: cancer in smokers), birth defects

: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulate

Beta carotene is *not* vitamin A.

Excess beta carotene does not cause liver damage or birth defects.

So how many consumers are harmed by pesticides in the UK each year? It's
bound to be a tiny fraction of the number that are harmed by their own
stupidity. Heck even being uneducated kills more people (the average life
expectancy for professionals is 7 years more than for manual workers).

You're stressing (which really does kill) over something that doesn't.
Though it's a common problem for those with certain political views -
folks with right wing politics live longer too :-)

I'd like to care, but unfortunately it's just not in my nature, though I
think you really should try and lighten up - I'm sure you'll live a longer
and happier life if you do. Add an education too and you might even live as
long, happy and healthy a life as many others here.

Michael Saunby


So being concerned about ones health and happiness is actually
detrimental to your lifespan is it? lol, what funny circles some
people live in, albeit for a brief time!


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes


You will be permitted to aruge that DDT is not a relevant
pesticide when it disappears from our environment and soils.

interesting that some of the largest users of DDT were public health
authorities


DDT is still permitted for public health use in some countries - it's a
damn fine product for killing mosquitoes; and malaria really does kill, so
it's only right that the judgement be made on the overall risks and
benefits not the scare mongering of eco loons. That use looks likely to
continue - see
http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/FAOINFO/A...s/nextmee1.htm

Michael Saunby

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Fri, 23 May 2003 13:21:37 +0100, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes


You will be permitted to aruge that DDT is not a relevant
pesticide when it disappears from our environment and soils.

interesting that some of the largest users of DDT were public health
authorities


DDT is still permitted for public health use in some countries - it's a
damn fine product for killing mosquitoes; and malaria really does kill, so
it's only right that the judgement be made on the overall risks and
benefits not the scare mongering of eco loons.

It's people like that who save you from yourself, and your families
family too. Mores the pity.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Oz" wrote in message
...

Best to buy it ready cooked in a tin.

Good. That's what I usually do with that particular type of bean. Thanks
for the info :-)

M

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Michael Saunby" wrote in message
...
DDT is still permitted for public health use in some countries - it's
a
damn fine product for killing mosquitoes; and malaria really does kill, so
it's only right that the judgement be made on the overall risks and
benefits not the scare mongering of eco loons. That use looks likely to
continue - see

http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/FAOINFO/A...Specs/nextmee1
..htm

Michael Saunby

James Mc Murtry "It had to Happen"

Track 5, "12 o clock whistle"

mentions city fathers having DDT sprayed from the water truck on the streets
of small town America. Meningitis and Malaria can kill
Jim Webster

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
: In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: : "Tim Tyler" wrote in message
...

: : Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins.
:
: : so you don't eat peppers?
:
: I often go easy on many pungent fruit and vegetables.
:
: I'm not sure what your point was - since the fruiting bodies of
: many peppers are neither particularly pungent nor terribly toxic.

: I think you better start doing some basic research, how pungent are red
: kidney beans

What are you on about now?

you said
: : Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins.

so do a taste bud test and tell us which are safest, raw red kidney beans or
raw peppers

Jim Webster

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Robert Seago wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote:

: Strawberries are one of the most pesticide-infected types of produce.
: They don't have natural toxins in. They are "designed" to be eaten by
: mammals like us. The fungicides sprayed on strawberries are toxic to
: animals like us. http://www.pesticideinfo.org/PCW/DS.jsp?sk='1016'
: lists the crap sprayed on strawberries. There can be no contest here.
:
: And I manage to grow them without a hint of pesticides.

As do I.


how many acres?

Jim Webster

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Mike Humberston wrote:

: If strawberries are supposed to be covered in fungicide then why
: is it that if I keep strawberries in my fridge for more than a few days
: they rapidly become covered in white fuzz?

Fungicides are not effective indefinitely.

Eventually the forces of decay win out.

exactly,

we all die as well

Jim Webster

Fungicides merely delay the process - but if the food is sold in
the interim they have served their purpose.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Fri, 23 May 2003 15:27:59 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Robert Seago wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote:

: Strawberries are one of the most pesticide-infected types of produce.
: They don't have natural toxins in. They are "designed" to be eaten by
: mammals like us. The fungicides sprayed on strawberries are toxic to
: animals like us. http://www.pesticideinfo.org/PCW/DS.jsp?sk='1016'
: lists the crap sprayed on strawberries. There can be no contest here.
:
: And I manage to grow them without a hint of pesticides.

As do I.


how many acres?

Presumably as much as one can manage, if you cannot manage a crop
without drowning it in poisons, you're in the wrong game.

Try bin collector, bit harder work but prolly more suited.



--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Oz wrote:

Mike Humberston writes

If strawberries are supposed to be covered in fungicide then why is it that if I
keep strawberries in my fridge for more than a few days they rapidly become
covered in white fuzz?

For pesticides there is a 'last spray to harvest' interval.

This is to ensure that the pesticide levels in the produce when sold is
below the required limit. For a 'programmed' spray plan the 'last spray'
is timed to easily miss the *earliest* harvest date because it's
unsalable until after that date.

Snip Oz's description of strawberry growing practises

Thanks Oz for your description.

So, am I correct if I think that TT is talking tosh when he implies that
strawberries are toxic?

Mike
(who eats very large quantities of English strawberries)

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Tim Tyler wrote:

In uk.rec.gardening Mike Humberston wrote:

: If strawberries are supposed to be covered in fungicide then why
: is it that if I keep strawberries in my fridge for more than a few days
: they rapidly become covered in white fuzz?

Fungicides are not effective indefinitely.

Because they don't remain on the fruit?

Eventually the forces of decay win out.

Because the fungicides are no longer present in sufficient quantities for them
to be effective?

Fungicides merely delay the process - but if the food is sold in
the interim they have served their purpose.

And the fruit is safe for the consumer to eat?

--
Mike Humberston
Barnes, London

WARNING: Spam trap in operation. Send any e-mail reply to mike, not oblivion.