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Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"martin" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:49:52 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. Now tell us that you drink it. I think it was Pandit Nehru who lived by the saying that a pint a day keeps the doctor away. Franz Heymann |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:40:28 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: "martin" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:49:52 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. Now tell us that you drink it. I think it was Pandit Nehru who lived by the saying that a pint a day keeps the doctor away. many people find more than one pint a day helps too :-) -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... Mary |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
anton wrote:
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. PVC is generally regarded as a pesticide, is it? Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote: No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... My tame biochemist is unable to think of any organochlorines that are safe for mammals in large quantities. Though my reaction is that most would be if you follow the directions on a tin that said: CAUTION: do not open tin, do not allow tin to become damaged or corroded, do not pass GO and do not collect 200 pounds .... Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
anton wrote:
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. PVC is generally regarded as a pesticide, is it? Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote: No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... My tame biochemist is unable to think of any organochlorines that are safe for mammals in large quantities. Though my reaction is that most would be if you follow the directions on a tin that said: CAUTION: do not open tin, do not allow tin to become damaged or corroded, do not pass GO and do not collect 200 pounds .... Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , Mary Fisher wrote: No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... My tame biochemist is unable to think of any organochlorines that are safe for mammals in large quantities. Er- we seem to have an instance of moving goalposts. Safe 'if you follow the instructions on the tin' was the original target, not 'safe for mammals in large quantities'. Try this one: http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/...tionNumber:2.2 -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. PVC is generally regarded as a pesticide, is it? Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. OK. Dear Mr Otter, Please tell me where you have seen a tin of DDT or aldrin or dieldrin recently, so that I can check the instructions on the tin. If like me you can't find any, please let sw know which decade we're in. Yours, -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:10:25 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. PVC is generally regarded as a pesticide, is it? Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. OK. Dear Mr Otter, Please tell me where you have seen a tin of DDT or aldrin or dieldrin recently, so that I can check the instructions on the tin. If like me you can't find any, please let sw know which decade we're in. Yours, http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/ddt/ddt.html "The use of DDT was banned in the United States in 1973, although it is still in use in some other parts of the world. The buildup of DDT in natural waters is a reverisble process: the EPA reported a 90% reduction of DDT in Lake Michigan fish by 1978 as a result of the ban." and http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , martin writes: | | http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/ddt/ddt.html | | "The use of DDT was banned in the United States in 1973, although it | is still in use in some other parts of the world. The buildup of DDT | in natural waters is a reverisble process: the EPA reported a 90% | reduction of DDT in Lake Michigan fish by 1978 as a result of the | ban." | | and | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html If I recall correctly, it was still INCREASING in some Arctic animals well into the 1990s. While the process is reversible, the timescale is very long. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , martin writes: | On 31 Jul 2003 08:47:26 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote: | In article , | martin writes: | | | | http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/ddt/ddt.html | | | | "The use of DDT was banned in the United States in 1973, although it | | is still in use in some other parts of the world. The buildup of DDT | | in natural waters is a reverisble process: the EPA reported a 90% | | reduction of DDT in Lake Michigan fish by 1978 as a result of the | | ban." | | | | and | | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html | | If I recall correctly, it was still INCREASING in some Arctic animals | well into the 1990s. While the process is reversible, the timescale | is very long. | | Do you know how many million people die of malaria every year? About 60, I think. However, the human race is in no great danger of becoming extinct - at least from that cause. Furthermore, do you know how many strains of mosquito were/are developing resistance to DDT? Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
anton wrote:
Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , Mary Fisher wrote: No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... My tame biochemist is unable to think of any organochlorines that are safe for mammals in large quantities. Er- we seem to have an instance of moving goalposts. Safe 'if you follow the instructions on the tin' was the original target, not 'safe for mammals in large quantities'. Do you know the meaning of the word 'bioaccumulative'? Why is it significant that organochlorines such as aldrin and dieldrin have 'half-lives' measured in years? regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. PVC is generally regarded as a pesticide, is it? Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. OK. Dear Mr Otter, Please tell me where you have seen a tin of DDT or aldrin or dieldrin recently, so that I can check the instructions on the tin. If like me you can't find any, please let sw know which decade we're in. Ah, sarcasm. Traditional refuge of the ill-informed. Tins of these these (and more besides) are still readily available in parts of Africa and elsewhere; and the instructions on the tin are? the substances themselves are persistent in the environments of countries in which they were banned. Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
In article , martin writes: | On 31 Jul 2003 08:47:26 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote: | In article , | martin writes: | | | | http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/ddt/ddt.html | | | | "The use of DDT was banned in the United States in 1973, although it | | is still in use in some other parts of the world. The buildup of DDT | | in natural waters is a reverisble process: the EPA reported a 90% | | reduction of DDT in Lake Michigan fish by 1978 as a result of the | | ban." | | | | and | | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html | | If I recall correctly, it was still INCREASING in some Arctic animals | well into the 1990s. While the process is reversible, the timescale | is very long. | | Do you know how many million people die of malaria every year? About 60, I think. However, the human race is in no great danger of becoming extinct - at least from that cause. Furthermore, do you know how many strains of mosquito were/are developing resistance to DDT? And in any case, to get back to "the instructions on the tin", we have a right to take a very conservative attitude to agro-chemicals: I can't think of an example of a newly-introduced chemical compound (as opposed to one in the presence of which mammals have evolved, though some of them turn out nasty, too) which hasn't progressively had its safe level reduced as we found out more about it. There must be some examples, I imagine; but I can't think of them. People don't always follow the instructions, even if they can read the language on the tin, and that's if they can read at all. I remember being sprayed, like everybody else in a room full of university graduates, with old-fashioned Flit in the Middle East: I was the only person in there who knew it was a bad idea. God knows what was in the flea-powder people used sometimes to put in their beds. I've seen spray-drift from British operations often enough, too. All I ask is caution: as near organic as you can reasonably get in your particular circumstances. Irrelevant arguments about drinking pee, and the harmful effects of next-door's oak-leaves, strike me as an attempt to avoid the issue. Mike. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , Mary Fisher wrote: No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... My tame biochemist is unable to think of any organochlorines that are safe for mammals in large quantities. Er- we seem to have an instance of moving goalposts. Safe 'if you follow the instructions on the tin' was the original target, not 'safe for mammals in large quantities'. Do you know the meaning of the word 'bioaccumulative'? Yes. Munch on this ragwort. Why is it significant that organochlorines such as aldrin and dieldrin have 'half-lives' measured in years? With respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever.. My suggestion was that (garden) pesticides are perfectly safe if instructions are followed. My suggestion was _not_ that previous generations of pesticides were safe, so don't bother me with aldrin and dieldrin, or I'll tell you about lead arsenate. Clearly in the light of the toxicity of water itself my 'perfectly' is an exaggeration, and I'll withdraw it if you like. There are some serious health issues on the subject of pesticides- the use of organophosphates by sheep farmers for instance- but these hardly apply on a garden scale. To return to the point, the kneejerk classification of synthetic pesticides as 'poisons' is merely hysterical when there are so many natural poisons in the garden, and so many other 'poisons' in all other aspects of modern life. -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On 31 Jul 2003 08:47:26 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , martin writes: | | http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/ddt/ddt.html | | "The use of DDT was banned in the United States in 1973, although it | is still in use in some other parts of the world. The buildup of DDT | in natural waters is a reverisble process: the EPA reported a 90% | reduction of DDT in Lake Michigan fish by 1978 as a result of the | ban." | | and | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html If I recall correctly, it was still INCREASING in some Arctic animals well into the 1990s. While the process is reversible, the timescale is very long. The problem gets worse the higher up the food chain you go. Krill eats plankton, shrimp eats krill, fish eats shrimp, seal eats fish, Eskimo eats seal, polar bear eats Eskimo. Guess who carries the biggest load of chlorinated crap in their body fat? [I may be completely confused on who eats who in the world of krill and plankton.] *Bacteria* can break down organochlorines, but higher animals can't. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , anton
writes Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine Where does(did) paraquat stand in this thread? -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"anton" wrote in message ... sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , Mary Fisher wrote: No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? I'll get my chair ... My tame biochemist is unable to think of any organochlorines that are safe for mammals in large quantities. Er- we seem to have an instance of moving goalposts. Safe 'if you follow the instructions on the tin' was the original target, not 'safe for mammals in large quantities'. Do you know the meaning of the word 'bioaccumulative'? Yes. Munch on this ragwort. Why is it significant that organochlorines such as aldrin and dieldrin have 'half-lives' measured in years? With respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever.. It is possible that you misunderstood the concept of "half-life" in this context. I (possibly wrongly) understand it to mean that if I ate a 1gm of a substance now, the half-life of that substance in me is the time after which there will still be 1/2 gm of it left in me. [Franz Heymann] My suggestion was that (garden) pesticides are perfectly safe if instructions are followed. My suggestion was _not_ that previous generations of pesticides were safe, so don't bother me with aldrin and dieldrin, or I'll tell you about lead arsenate. Clearly in the light of the toxicity of water itself my 'perfectly' is an exaggeration, and I'll withdraw it if you like. There are some serious health issues on the subject of pesticides- the use of organophosphates by sheep farmers for instance- but these hardly apply on a garden scale. To return to the point, the kneejerk classification of synthetic pesticides as 'poisons' is merely hysterical when there are so many natural poisons in the garden, and so many other 'poisons' in all other aspects of modern life. -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"anton" wrote in message ... sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ Sorry, that's not true. PVC is an organochlorine and is 'perfectly safe' unless you start burning it. PVC is generally regarded as a pesticide, is it? Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. OK. Dear Mr Otter, Please tell me where you have seen a tin of DDT or aldrin or dieldrin recently, so that I can check the instructions on the tin. If like me you can't find any, please let sw know which decade we're in. Ah, sarcasm. Traditional refuge of the ill-informed. Tins of these these (and more besides) are still readily available in parts of Africa and elsewhere; and the instructions on the tin are? May I humbly suggest that you have had your mileage on this one by now? [Franz Heymann] the substances themselves are persistent in the environments of countries in which they were banned. Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Franz Heymann wrote in message ... "anton" wrote in message ... Why is it significant that organochlorines such as aldrin and dieldrin have 'half-lives' measured in years? With respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever.. It is possible that you misunderstood the concept of "half-life" in this context. I (possibly wrongly) understand it to mean that if I ate a 1gm of a substance now, the half-life of that substance in me is the time after which there will still be 1/2 gm of it left in me. [Franz Heymann] I understood it to mean the half-life in the soil, water, etc, but you might be right in believing it to be the half-life in our bodies. Either way, with respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever. To return to the point, the kneejerk classification of synthetic pesticides as 'poisons' is merely hysterical when there are so many natural poisons in the garden, and so many other 'poisons' in all other aspects of modern life. -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Franz Heymann wrote in message ... "anton" wrote in message ... Why is it significant that organochlorines such as aldrin and dieldrin have 'half-lives' measured in years? With respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever.. It is possible that you misunderstood the concept of "half-life" in this context. I (possibly wrongly) understand it to mean that if I ate a 1gm of a substance now, the half-life of that substance in me is the time after which there will still be 1/2 gm of it left in me. [Franz Heymann] I understood it to mean the half-life in the soil, water, etc, but you might be right in believing it to be the half-life in our bodies. Either way, with respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever. To return to the point, the kneejerk classification of synthetic pesticides as 'poisons' is merely hysterical when there are so many natural poisons in the garden, and so many other 'poisons' in all other aspects of modern life. -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , anton
writes Nowhere now- it's not a garden herbicide, and hasn't been for some time: That is because it was banned several years ago. Before that it was regularly used both in horticulture and agriculture. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"anton" wrote in message ... Franz Heymann wrote in message ... "anton" wrote in message ... Why is it significant that organochlorines such as aldrin and dieldrin have 'half-lives' measured in years? With respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever.. It is possible that you misunderstood the concept of "half-life" in this context. I (possibly wrongly) understand it to mean that if I ate a 1gm of a substance now, the half-life of that substance in me is the time after which there will still be 1/2 gm of it left in me. [Franz Heymann] I understood it to mean the half-life in the soil, water, etc, but you might be right in believing it to be the half-life in our bodies. Either way, with respect to this argument, the half-lives of those compounds are of no significance whatsoever. If the term does in fact involve the time for halving the quantity in your body, then you ahould think again. The longer the half-life, the higher the equilibrium level in your body, for a given rate of intake. [Franz Heymann] To return to the point, the kneejerk classification of synthetic pesticides as 'poisons' is merely hysterical when there are so many natural poisons in the garden, and so many other 'poisons' in all other aspects of modern life. -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"anton" wrote in message ... Alan Gould wrote in message ... In article , anton writes Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine Where does(did) paraquat stand in this thread? Nowhere now- it's not a garden herbicide, and hasn't been for some time: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/m...es/Poisons.htm REGISTRATION UNDER THE POISONS ACT 1972 "The following poisons may be sold ONLY to persons engaged in the trade or business of agriculture, horticulture or forestry and for the purpose of that trade or business....paraquat" Very nasty stuff. "Pathclear" is freely available in garden centres. It contains Paraquat. "Weedol" is shy about saying what its active ingredient is. If it is not Paraquat, then what is it? [Franz Heymann] -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ... "anton" wrote in message ... Alan Gould wrote in message ... In article , anton writes Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine Where does(did) paraquat stand in this thread? Nowhere now- it's not a garden herbicide, and hasn't been for some time: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/m...es/Poisons.htm REGISTRATION UNDER THE POISONS ACT 1972 "The following poisons may be sold ONLY to persons engaged in the trade or business of agriculture, horticulture or forestry and for the purpose of that trade or business....paraquat" Very nasty stuff. "Pathclear" is freely available in garden centres. It contains Paraquat. "Weedol" is shy about saying what its active ingredient is. If it is not Paraquat, then what is it? [Franz Heymann] Addendum: I have just looked up a URL which refers to Weedol and Paraquat. It confirms that Paraquat is in fact an active ingredient of Weedol. [Franz Heymann] -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
anton wrote:
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: [-] Which organochlorines in which tins are you suggesting ain't perfectly safe? DDT, aldrin, dieldrin... just ask an otter. Or a bird of prey. OK. Dear Mr Otter, Please tell me where you have seen a tin of DDT or aldrin or dieldrin recently, so that I can check the instructions on the tin. If like me you can't find any, please let sw know which decade we're in. Ah, sarcasm. Traditional refuge of the ill-informed. Tins of these these (and more besides) are still readily available in parts of Africa and elsewhere; and the instructions on the tin are? I don't know. The label is printed in English and I'm an illiterate African farmworker. Alternatively, I'm English, literate, and firmly believer that if some is good, more is better. You are welcome to believe that (current) (garden) pesticides are safe if used according to the instructions on the tin. It may even be true for some, although the rate at which pesticides are banned as we discover more about their effects undermines your assumption of safety. But it's even more important to recognise that many people don't read the instructions, or don't follow them. Welcome to the real world. the substances themselves are persistent in the environments of countries in which they were banned. Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine You forgot to put 'current' in parentheses. I suspect there's a proper debating term for deciding to change the rules because you can't win the game. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In message , anton
writes Alan Gould wrote in message ... In article , anton writes Yes. Returning to the point, compare and contrast the dangers to the user of current pesticides when properly used with: a) previously used pesticides, such as lead arsenate b) other household chemicals c) urine Where does(did) paraquat stand in this thread? Nowhere now- it's not a garden herbicide, and hasn't been for some time: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/m...es/Poisons.htm REGISTRATION UNDER THE POISONS ACT 1972 "The following poisons may be sold ONLY to persons engaged in the trade or business of agriculture, horticulture or forestry and for the purpose of that trade or business....paraquat" Very nasty stuff. Only if you are daft enough to drink it. And enough people were... I thought they latterly added bitterex or something similarly vicious tasting to prevent would be suicide cases using the stuff. Nasty choice of poison too. ISTR it is metabolised and almost completely removed but destroys vital organs like the liver and/or kidneys in the process. Similar problems also occur with natural Amanita toxins. Regards, -- Martin Brown |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , Martin Brown
writes Very nasty stuff. Only if you are daft enough to drink it. And enough people were... It also happened by accident in lots of cases. I thought they latterly added bitterex or something similarly vicious tasting to prevent would be suicide cases using the stuff. Nasty choice of poison too. ISTR it is metabolised and almost completely removed but destroys vital organs like the liver and/or kidneys in the process. Similar problems also occur with natural Amanita toxins. Another now banned substance which used to be popular with gardeners was nicotine. A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. People understood the need to ban that because of its known dangers to smokers, but some still risk using it. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
[ paraquat]
On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:56:53 +0100, Martin Brown wrote: In message , anton writes Very nasty stuff. Only if you are daft enough to drink it. And enough people were... It seems like many cases of gardeners accidentally ingesting chemicals (not just paraquat) have occurred because the solution was put into a softdrink bottle or something similar -- and then the thirsty gardener takes a swig on a hot day! Ooopsie! It is fundamental to the safe use of chemicals of all sorts around the house that they *never* be mixed or stored, even for a few minutes, in any container that would ever contain food or drink. I would go so far as to say that this even applies to the stuff you wash the kitchen floor with. Don't depend on anyone remembering that the Coke bottle or the peanut butter jar has paraquat in it. Urglers! Don't let your household be the site of a tragedy! In *this* household, there is a special orange bucket for mixing herbicides and an orange watering can for applying the stuff, a further refinement that ensures that herbicide residues don't get into fertilizer solutions. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In message , Alan Gould
writes In article , Martin Brown writes Very nasty stuff. Only if you are daft enough to drink it. And enough people were... It also happened by accident in lots of cases. Something that would definitely be avoided by adding bitterex. It is insane to store toxic garden chemicals in lemonade bottles, but people do and it is impossible to legislate against stupidity. I thought they latterly added bitterex or something similarly vicious tasting to prevent would be suicide cases using the stuff. Nasty choice of poison too. ISTR it is metabolised and almost completely removed but destroys vital organs like the liver and/or kidneys in the process. Similar problems also occur with natural Amanita toxins. Another now banned substance which used to be popular with gardeners was nicotine. A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. People understood the need to ban that because of its known dangers to smokers, but some still risk using it. News to me. I thought so far the limit of state intervention on nicotine was to prevent the explicit advertising of the tobacco products to addicts. Using nicotine extracts as a pesticide was always ill advised because the LD50 for humans is about the amount you can solvent extract from just one cigarette. Lucky really that smoking the stuff is so inefficient. Major problem with it is you get tobacco mosaic virus as a freeloader. There are endless versions of fake Organic(TM) "kitchen sink" chemistry recipes on the net using fag ends that are quite literally lethal if executed correctly. Fortunately, most of them use the wrong solvent for extraction. Regards, -- Martin Brown |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article ,
Rodger Whitlock wrote: [ paraquat] Only if you are daft enough to drink it. And enough people were... It seems like many cases of gardeners accidentally ingesting chemicals (not just paraquat) have occurred because the solution was put into a softdrink bottle or something similar -- and then the thirsty gardener takes a swig on a hot day! Ooopsie! Not to say the same being done by children. It is fundamental to the safe use of chemicals of all sorts around the house that they *never* be mixed or stored, even for a few minutes, in any container that would ever contain food or drink. I would go so far as to say that this even applies to the stuff you wash the kitchen floor with. Whereas I would say that you are OTT. SOME chemicals (like bleach and sodium laureth sulphate) cross the borderline between food use and other use. If your floor cleaner is just the latter (i.e. a stronger form of washing up liquid), then there is no problem. The only pesticide that I both use and don't worry too much about is Bordeaux mixture. It is easy to check that I have rinsed off enough that even somebody licking the bowl would come to no harm. [ Clue: a microgram a day is good for you, an occasional milligram is completely harmless, and a gram is potentially lethal. ] Most fertilisers are pretty safe, too. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article ,
Rodger Whitlock wrote: [ paraquat] Only if you are daft enough to drink it. And enough people were... It seems like many cases of gardeners accidentally ingesting chemicals (not just paraquat) have occurred because the solution was put into a softdrink bottle or something similar -- and then the thirsty gardener takes a swig on a hot day! Ooopsie! Not to say the same being done by children. It is fundamental to the safe use of chemicals of all sorts around the house that they *never* be mixed or stored, even for a few minutes, in any container that would ever contain food or drink. I would go so far as to say that this even applies to the stuff you wash the kitchen floor with. Whereas I would say that you are OTT. SOME chemicals (like bleach and sodium laureth sulphate) cross the borderline between food use and other use. If your floor cleaner is just the latter (i.e. a stronger form of washing up liquid), then there is no problem. The only pesticide that I both use and don't worry too much about is Bordeaux mixture. It is easy to check that I have rinsed off enough that even somebody licking the bowl would come to no harm. [ Clue: a microgram a day is good for you, an occasional milligram is completely harmless, and a gram is potentially lethal. ] Most fertilisers are pretty safe, too. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On 4 Aug 2003 07:46:54 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Rodger Whitlock wrote: It is fundamental to the safe use of chemicals of all sorts around the house that they *never* be mixed or stored, even for a few minutes, in any container that would ever contain food or drink. I would go so far as to say that this even applies to the stuff you wash the kitchen floor with. Whereas I would say that you are OTT. My reasoning is that if you form the habit "never put non-food in food containers", life is simpler and you are less liable to make serious mistakes. IOW, I'm proposing a behavioral program without claiming that the kitchen-floor-wash-stuff will poison you. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On 4 Aug 2003 07:46:54 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Rodger Whitlock wrote: It is fundamental to the safe use of chemicals of all sorts around the house that they *never* be mixed or stored, even for a few minutes, in any container that would ever contain food or drink. I would go so far as to say that this even applies to the stuff you wash the kitchen floor with. Whereas I would say that you are OTT. My reasoning is that if you form the habit "never put non-food in food containers", life is simpler and you are less liable to make serious mistakes. IOW, I'm proposing a behavioral program without claiming that the kitchen-floor-wash-stuff will poison you. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
anton wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote in message .. . Is urine poisonous? Of course- in sufficient quantity. Just like pesticides. Gosh. I've had gallons and gallons of urine in my body over sixty odd years and I'm still around. My mum is ninety one. Amazing. No- not amazing. You've just proved that it's perfectly safe if you follow the instructions on the can. Just like pesticides ;-) Sorry, but that's not true... organochlorines aren't 'perfectly safe' whether you follow the instructions on the tin or not :-/ regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
sw wrote in message ... anton wrote: snip To return to the point, the kneejerk classification of synthetic pesticides as 'poisons' is merely hysterical when there are so many natural poisons in the garden, and so many other 'poisons' in all other aspects of modern life. On the other hand, your kneejerk support for pesticide use is equally hysterical. In support of your little fantasy, please quote my words to show that I have a 'kneejerk support for pesticide use'. Many natural poisons are nicely segregated in places where they have no effect on me or mine. Anyone for ragwort? Implicated in hundreds of deaths of horses per year in the UK, according to a recent report iirc. As to the rest, I see no point in adding to the risk. If avoiding all pesticide use is your chosen means of 'not adding to the risk', fine. Some non-pesticide users make greater use of plastic sheeting; flame-throwers; or powered tools such as strimmers as a result of not using pesticides, In my opinion the 'risks', whether environmental or personal, of these actions are often greater than the risks of pesticide use. Please note however, I wouldn't dream of telling you that your gardening method without pesticides is wrong, whereas you appear to consider it reasonable for people to scream about others putting 'poisons' into the environment with any use of pesticides. Correct me if I have misunderstood your views. There's no point in continuing this, either. We will have to agree to differ. As you've misstated my position, you're not in a position to agree on anything. -- Anton |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
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