Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article ,
Michael Berridge wrote:

Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Steve Harris) writes:
| In article ,
| (Alan Gould) wrote:
|
| A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
| effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
| problems.
|
| But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so
safe for humans, though ....

Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get
nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by
products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have
been added, that cause the problems.

Er, no. Nicotine is extremely poisonous, and it is very easy to take
a fatal overdose if you extract it from tobacco.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article , martin
writes

why is pyrethrum not allowed Alan?

It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains etc.
I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article , martin
writes

What is important, is what consumers think they are buying in
supermarkets when they buy organic. Perhaps a bit of publicity is
needed to clarify this for the woman with the shopping trolley.

The woman and the man buying organic produce are protected by laws which
ensure that they are sold food of the approved organic standards. That
is of course organic as applied to food production, strictly regulated
and monitored. I agree that more publicity for it would be welcome.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:18:55 +0100, Alan Gould
wrote:

In article , martin
writes

why is pyrethrum not allowed Alan?

It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains etc.

I don't understand.

I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(

LOL the poison chalice or hemlock?
--
Martin

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:18:55 +0100, Alan Gould
wrote:

In article , martin
writes

why is pyrethrum not allowed Alan?

It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains etc.

I don't understand.

I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(

LOL the poison chalice or hemlock?
--
Martin

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

"ned" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:
snip
....... but my worry is that I doubt if enough
food to feed the whole world would be produced if organic farming
principles were applied globally.

Franz

There will never be enough food to feed the whole world. Your concern
is about an unsolvable problem.

It is my understanding that at the present time it is possible to produce
enough food to feed the whole world. For how much longer that would be true
is a moot point.

First priority should be to curb the population then apply a neat
'environmentally clean' solution to the food production.

I agree that there are far too many humans in the world. They are ruining
the planet at one hell of a rate. I have a strong feeling that sooner or
later mother nature will take that matter in hand. (But mother nature's
methods are pretty crude.)

Franz

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

"dave @ stejonda" wrote in message
...
In message , Franz Heymann
writes
So-called organic husbandry is, by my understanding, a set of
techniques
which aim to increase the levels of the 'agents' you mention. Rather
than relying on factories to produce concentrated chemical feeds in an
energy intensive fashion the aim is to increase the soils own fertility
in the long term in a sustainable way. All talk of specific substances
which can be applied to the soil or not is subsidiary to the underlying
approach.

That is a laudable attitude, but my worry is that I doubt if enough
food to feed the whole world would be produced if organic farming
principles were applied globally.

There's plenty of food-producing capacity. It's the inequalities in
distribution and consumption that create an apparent shortage. Developed
countries (particularly the US) need to reduce their over-consumption
and stop leeching resources from the developing world.

The attribution marks in this note have gone for a burton, as a result of
indiscriminate editing and removal of headers.
I am incapable of expressing myself as well as in the section here
attributed to me.

Franz

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , martin
writes

why is pyrethrum not allowed Alan?

It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains etc.
I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(

I have not yet seen the answer to the question.
And what do the words "in the botanical form" mean in the present context?

Franz

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

"Laurie Moseley" wrote in message
...

ubject: Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
From: "Franz Heymann"
Date: 14/08/2003 15:11 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Laurie Moseley" wrote in message
...
This is the problem. It's the usual trap of trying to make "I
understand
it in
this way" mean "Everyone understands it in this way". That is one of
the
reasons why communication is often so poor.

Could this be the basis for many divorces ?
(Insert Smiley)

How on earth are we supposed to know what you are talking about, when
you
have stripped off all headers and every vestige of context?

Fair point. A slip of the finger - I intended to reply to the sender, not
to
the group. My apologies.

Accepted. You are forgiven. {:-)

Franz

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
writes

(a) On what grounds are nicotine classified as "not organic"?
Nicotine is a dangerous poison not permitted for use by commercial
growers of organic produce and not recommended for use by recreational
gardeners wishing to follow organic methods. The fact that nicotine and
many other banned substances originate from plant or animal material
does not make them suitable for use in organic growing.
(b) How is pyrethrum classified?
(c) An organic afficionado claimed in this ng (this thread?) that
Bordeaux
mixture was classified as organic.
Both Pyrethrum and Bordeaux Mixture are listed as not suitable for use
in organic horticulture. Along with other substances, they are listed as
permissible to be used by growers in the conversion period to organic
growing. Produce grown with their use cannot be sold as organic.

Oh dear. Give me that old time non-organic food.

Franz

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

Franz Heymann wrote:

snip
I agree that there are far too many humans in the world. They are
ruining the planet at one hell of a rate. I have a strong feeling
that sooner or later mother nature will take that matter in hand.

Agreed.

(But mother nature's methods are pretty crude.)

I can't see a 'sensible' solution being reached by mankind. So if
mother nature does over do it a bit, then it serves mankind right for
not reacting to the inevitable.

--
ned

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article , Franz Heymann
writes


It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains etc.
I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(

I have not yet seen the answer to the question.
Check your PC, the answer appears on my screen in red lettering.

And what do the words "in the botanical form" mean in the present context?

It means when the plant is alive and growing and thus consists of living
organisms.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
writes


It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains
etc.
I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(

I have not yet seen the answer to the question.
Check your PC, the answer appears on my screen in red lettering.

And what do the words "in the botanical form" mean in the present
context?

It means when the plant is alive and growing and thus consists of living
organisms.

If I were to try and classify that statement properly, my language would
have to be so anally oriented that you would detest me even more than you do
now, so I will refrain.

Franz

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:42:19 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
writes


It becomes unsuitable when it is processed from plants in the
chrysanthemum family into pyrethrins [esters] for herbicidal or
insecticidal use. In the botanical form, the same plants can have
beneficial uses, e.g. as in the use of Feverfew for aches and pains
etc.
I use an infusion of that admirable plant as a nerve tonic and pick-me-
up -- often after a session in urg! :-(

I have not yet seen the answer to the question.
Check your PC, the answer appears on my screen in red lettering.

And what do the words "in the botanical form" mean in the present
context?

It means when the plant is alive and growing and thus consists of living
organisms.

If I were to try and classify that statement properly, my language would
have to be so anally oriented that you would detest me even more than you do
now, so I will refrain.

Please do.....

Are we living in Brave New World or 1984 already?
--
Martin

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article , Franz Heymann
writes
It means when the plant is alive and growing and thus consists of living
organisms.

If I were to try and classify that statement properly, my language would
have to be so anally oriented that you would detest me even more than you do
now, so I will refrain.

Sorry about that Franz, I should have added that botany is the science
of plants.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article ,
(Mike Lyle) wrote:

but usually that weather
conditions or war have pushed food prices beyond the reach of poorer
people.
The same was true even in the notorious Irish potato famine,
which, I may say, was followed by a similar blight event in England.

These famines typically take place in subsistence farming situations.
That was the case in Ireland. attempts were made to relieve that famine
but were frustrated by the lack of a distribution system.

IMHO, subsistence farming based on a small number of crops is just as
silly as flying beans from Kenya.

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In message , Alan Gould
writes
In article , martin
writes

What is important, is what consumers think they are buying in
supermarkets when they buy organic. Perhaps a bit of publicity is
needed to clarify this for the woman with the shopping trolley.

The woman and the man buying organic produce are protected by laws which
ensure that they are sold food of the approved organic standards. That
is of course organic as applied to food production, strictly regulated
and monitored. I agree that more publicity for it would be welcome.

That's why there are middle men doing dodgy deals to rebadge ordinary
produce with fake Organic(TM) credentials. There are several such
prosecutions in progress in Belgium at the moment for large scale
flouting of the laws related to selling on conventional produce as
Organic(TM).

This is inevitable since some conventional produce may be essentially
identical to the Organic(TM) stuff if it can be fitted up with suitable
false documentation the fraud is virtually impossible to detect
analytically. And the high premium that it commands encourages such
fakery.

Incidentally is Organic(TM) produce air freighted from Africa still
Organic(TM) when it reaches the UK ? By that point it will have used an
order of magnitude more petrochemicals getting it here than would be
applied to grow it locally even under the worst conventional farming
regimes...

The main problem with Organic(TM) is that it fails to solve the problem
of supermarket customers demanding cosmetically perfect fruit and
vegetables all year round. And the customer is always right.

Organic(TM) is a religion and not a rational way to proceed. Its entry
costs are too high and products are too expensive to make a major
impact.

Which is better for the environment ?

Getting 5% of farmers to use "no chemicals at all" and go Organic(TM)
or
Getting the other 95% to use say 50% less chemicals and accept slightly
lower yields.

I am no fan of over intensive farming. And the UK has a rather bad
public attitude to food as crude "fuel" which has put emphasis on
quantity over quality. In mainland Europe good food is seen as an
essential part of life - a viewpoint I subscribe to. You are after all
what you eat.

Minimum inputs is a far more reasonable approach but much much harder to
sell to the consumer than the Organic(TM) "no chemicals" slogan.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:39:05 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

I am no fan of over intensive farming. And the UK has a rather bad
public attitude to food as crude "fuel" which has put emphasis on
quantity over quality. In mainland Europe good food is seen as an
essential part of life - a viewpoint I subscribe to. You are after all
what you eat.

I don't think the Dutch have that attitude, after all most of the
pretty and tasteless vegetables on sale in UK supermarkets are grown
in Dutch green houses, using vast quantities of natural gas. The
quality of the vegetables in Zuid Holland was what initially made my
wife decide to grow her own vegetables. Particularly disgusting were
Dutch carrots that were grown in fields sprayed or injected with raw
pig manure. The carrots stunk of pig muck when cooked. Ear and throat
infections caused by pig muck dust blowing in the wind was endemic.
The quantity of vegetables that can be produced from a 10x10metre
plot, without using any chemicals at all is really amazing and the
superb taste is even more amazing


Minimum inputs is a far more reasonable approach but much much harder to
sell to the consumer than the Organic(TM) "no chemicals" slogan.

The slogan is not true is it?
--
Martin

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

Martin Brown wrote in message ...
[...]
Minimum inputs is a far more reasonable approach but much much harder to
sell to the consumer than the Organic(TM) "no chemicals" slogan.

Just in case: I've just cancelled a reply to your very sensible
message, based on a hung-over-from-sleeping-pill total
misunderstanding. If it gets through, I'd be grateful if everybody
would ignore it!

Mike.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

Martin Brown wrote in message ...
[...]
Minimum inputs is a far more reasonable approach but much much harder to
sell to the consumer than the Organic(TM) "no chemicals" slogan.

Just in case: I've just cancelled a reply to your very sensible
message, based on a hung-over-from-sleeping-pill total
misunderstanding. If it gets through, I'd be grateful if everybody
would ignore it!

Mike.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article , Martin Brown
writes
(Rather selective snip)
The main problem with Organic(TM) is that it fails to solve the problem
of supermarket customers demanding cosmetically perfect fruit and
vegetables all year round. And the customer is always right.

Thanks for that thoughtful overview Martin. As usual, my comments relate
to produce sold as organic under EU regulations, monitored by HM Govt.,
produced by accredited growers and carrying the Organic symbol. I have
never seen produce described as Organic(TM) other than mentions of it in
this group, so you are quite correct to question whether such would be
what any customer for organic produce was expecting to get.

My own view is that the most certain way to be sure that food being
consumed is genuinely organic, environmentally friendly and really fresh
is to grow it ones self. The next best option is to go to growers'
markets, or to trade direct with a local accredited grower. A very
popular way of doing that is the 'box' scheme, where deliveries are made
at regular intervals to customers. Most box schemes however have a
waiting list due demand always exceeding available supply.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
 

In article , Martin Brown
writes
(Rather selective snip)
The main problem with Organic(TM) is that it fails to solve the problem
of supermarket customers demanding cosmetically perfect fruit and
vegetables all year round. And the customer is always right.

Thanks for that thoughtful overview Martin. As usual, my comments relate
to produce sold as organic under EU regulations, monitored by HM Govt.,
produced by accredited growers and carrying the Organic symbol. I have
never seen produce described as Organic(TM) other than mentions of it in
this group, so you are quite correct to question whether such would be
what any customer for organic produce was expecting to get.

My own view is that the most certain way to be sure that food being
consumed is genuinely organic, environmentally friendly and really fresh
is to grow it ones self. The next best option is to go to growers'
markets, or to trade direct with a local accredited grower. A very
popular way of doing that is the 'box' scheme, where deliveries are made
at regular intervals to customers. Most box schemes however have a
waiting list due demand always exceeding available supply.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.