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Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
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Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , Steve
Harris writes But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) No. It is neither organic, nor legal. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Does it work on trolls Nick? -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article ,
Alan Gould wrote: In article , Steve Harris writes But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) No. It is neither organic, nor legal. Are you using the word "organic" in the sense of Organic(TM)? It is assuredly (a) organic in the chemical sense, (b) organic in the sense that it is a natural plant extract, (c) organic in the sense that it is ecologically almost harmless and probably organic in other senses, too. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article ,
Alan Gould wrote: In article , Nick Maclaren writes | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Does it work on trolls Nick? Dunno. You would have to try it and see. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"Alan Gould" wrote in message ... In article , Steve Harris writes But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) No. It is neither organic, If you are referring to nicotine, you are wrong. nor legal. Franz Heymann |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Harris) writes: | In article , | (Alan Gould) wrote: | | A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very | effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety | problems. | | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have been added, that cause the problems. Mike www.british-naturism.org.uk |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Harris) writes: | In article , | (Alan Gould) wrote: | | A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very | effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety | problems. | | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have been added, that cause the problems. Mike www.british-naturism.org.uk |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Harris) writes: | In article , | (Alan Gould) wrote: | | A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very | effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety | problems. | | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have been added, that cause the problems. Mike www.british-naturism.org.uk |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes No. It is neither organic, nor legal. Are you using the word "organic" in the sense of Organic(TM)? It is assuredly (a) organic in the chemical sense, (b) organic in the sense that it is a natural plant extract, (c) organic in the sense that it is ecologically almost harmless and probably organic in other senses, too. Noted. -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message ... In article , Michael Berridge wrote: Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Harris) writes: | In article , | (Alan Gould) wrote: | | A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very | effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety | problems. | | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have been added, that cause the problems. Er, no. Nicotine is extremely poisonous, and it is very easy to take a fatal overdose if you extract it from tobacco. A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned. [Franz Heymann] |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , "Franz Heymann" writes: | | A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting | the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking | extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned. Actually a minority, and there is little difference between the flower and vegetable gardens. The main reason for banning such things is that bureaucrats don't like uppity peasants. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
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Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , martin writes: | | | | A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting | | the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking | | extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned. | | Actually a minority, and there is little difference between the flower | and vegetable gardens. The main reason for banning such things is | that bureaucrats don't like uppity peasants. | | it's not, but if believing that makes you feel good............ Would you like to propose your hypothesis, so that we can all have a good laugh? Please remember that, in science, a hypothesis must fit the facts to be worth taking seriously. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:39 +0100 (BST), Steve Harris wrote:
In article , (Alan Gould) wrote: A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. Nicotine, the active insecticidal compound found in tobacco, has a very high level of toxicity for mammals. You are a mammal. It is much less safe for you than the usual non-organic (sensu confusu) insecticides. The fact that it is derived directly from a natural source in no way makes a solution of cigarette butts a safe insecticide. To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in nature" and you will be more accurate and focussed in your objections -- which, I might add, I am in reasonable agreement with. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. No! Really? To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in nature" Oh come on! Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a gardening group. Mary |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , Mary Fisher
writes Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a gardening group. Very good point Mary. In this group references to 'organic' are assumed to be about organic gardening practices unless otherwise indicated. Urg has a FAQ on the subject of organic gardening at: http://www.nugget.demon.co.uk/MetaFA...gardening.html -- Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In message , Michael
Berridge writes Nick Maclaren wrote in message ... In article , (Steve Harris) writes: | In article , | (Alan Gould) wrote: | | A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very | effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety | problems. | | But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so safe for humans, though .... Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have been added, that cause the problems. Nicotine is a remarkably deadly poison! You can just about extract LD50 for humans from a couple of cigarettes using the right solvents. What protects smokers is that burning is a very inefficient way to absorb it. And addict patches contain only tiny amounts of the active ingredient. As an insecticide it also had the annoying problem of frequently being contaminated with tobacco mosaic virus. And despite it's name the TMV is rather promiscuous about the plants it will infect. In the days when nicotine was still licenced for greenhouse use it caused serious operator casualties. Mistakes with nicotine extract could be severely punished because of its high mammalian toxicity and skin penetration. Regards, -- Martin Brown |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:39 +0100 (BST), Steve Harris wrote: In article , (Alan Gould) wrote: A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. Nicotine, the active insecticidal compound found in tobacco, has a very high level of toxicity for mammals. You are a mammal. It is much less safe for you than the usual non-organic (sensu confusu) insecticides. The fact that it is derived directly from a natural source in no way makes a solution of cigarette butts a safe insecticide. To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in nature" and you will be more accurate and focussed in your objections -- which, I might add, I am in reasonable agreement with. At last someone has said it straight out in this ng. Folk should realise that it is quite silly to use the term "organic" versus "inorganic" in the contexts in which they are commonly used in agri- and horticulture. The more sensible dichotomy is between *beneficient* and *deleterious* substances. Both "organic" and "inorganic" substances in use in horticulture have examples in both camps. If a chemical does a lot of good and a minimum of harm, I will gladly use it, whether it is correctly or incorrectly classified as "organic" or "inorganic". [Franz Heymann] |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. No! Really? Yes, really. To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in nature" Oh come on! The sentence to which you are objecting is quite strictly correct. Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a gardening group. Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". I have just rechecked the definition of the term "organic" in the Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry. ".........Organic chemistry is now the study of the compounds of carbon, whether they be isolated from natural sources or synthesised in the laboratory.........." [Franz Heymann] |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"martin" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. Indeed. I wish I could make my better half understand that. [Franz Heymann] |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:15:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: "martin" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. Indeed. I wish I could make my better half understand that. There was a very good program on BBC about it. According to them the Organic Food Industry have a large book full of approved alternative natural chemicals. Copper was the alternative thing to put on potatoes. -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's meant without being pedantic. I have just rechecked the definition of the term "organic" in the Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry. ".........Organic chemistry is now the study of the compounds of carbon, whether they be isolated from natural sources or synthesised in the laboratory.........." As a one-time organic chemist I know that. You shouldn't make assumptions. Mary [Franz Heymann] |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's meant
without being pedantic." No we don't all know what's meant - that is the whole point of this discussion. It is a writer's responsibility to try to avoid misunderstandings on the part of their readers. That is why we have a common language. More generally, those who call other people "pedantic" are usually being woolly. Unless you are very careful in your use of words, there is always a danger of miscommunication, and of your readers not understanding you in the way that you thought that you intended. Pedantry is one of the great safeguards of freedom and democracy. Let's start a "Save pedantry" campaign. Laurie Laurie (Laurence) Moseley Plus Ultra Expert Systems, Decision-Making, Argentinian Tango & Golf |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
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Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:25:46 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:
But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. No! Really? To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in nature" Oh come on! Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a gardening group. I am of the opinion that the horticultural word "organic" covers such a wide assortment of tendencies, trends, practices, and fads (to say nothing of sins, errors, and willful ignorance) that it is meaningless. There's a touching idea about, that if it's "organic" (or "natural" or even "herbal") that it's Truly Wonderful and Utterly Harm-Free. Now tell me, just what do ~you~ mean by "organic" when you use it in reference to gardening, horticulture, farming, food production, etc? Be specific. I'm curious, very curious. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
martin wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"martin" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:15:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: "martin" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. Indeed. I wish I could make my better half understand that. There was a very good program on BBC about it. According to them the Organic Food Industry have a large book full of approved alternative natural chemicals. Copper was the alternative thing to put on potatoes. Where do they place slaked lime? It is not a natural chemical, but is produced by calcining limestone and allowing the quicklime produced in this manner to be hydrated. What is natural about this?? Franz -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"sw" wrote in message ... martin wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops. Must I then take it that organic food == food grown with nice tasting chemicals and ordinary food == food grown with nasty tasting chemicals? Franz |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's meant without being pedantic. Actually, you don't. Please, without looking at what I recently said about lime, tell me whether it is organic or inorganic. I have just rechecked the definition of the term "organic" in the Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry. ".........Organic chemistry is now the study of the compounds of carbon, whether they be isolated from natural sources or synthesised in the laboratory.........." As a one-time organic chemist I know that. You shouldn't make assumptions. I made no assumptions anout your profession. I only commented on the vague usage of the term "organic" in gardening circles. I have gardened for close on seventy years, and I have felt no need to classify anything as "organic" or otherwise in the gardening sense. I use ony the categories "beneficient" and "harmful" in the current context. This avoids me falling into the trap of ever calling copper sulphate and lime "organic" and DDT "not organic". Franz Franz |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes "Mary Fisher" wrote in message et... A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. No! Really? Yes, really. "Irony doesn't work on usenet" ;-) -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
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On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:20:30 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote: "sw" wrote in message ... martin wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann" wrote: Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic". It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals. Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops. Must I then take it that organic food == food grown with nice tasting chemicals and ordinary food == food grown with nasty tasting chemicals? I think folksy old fashioned names for chemicals are better than real chemical names. :-) -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:14:02 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote: "Irony doesn't work on usenet" ;-) Have you tried spraying it on your potatoes? :-) -- Martin |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
This is the problem. It's the usual trap of trying to make "I understand it in
this way" mean "Everyone understands it in this way". That is one of the reasons why communication is often so poor. Could this be the basis for many divorces ? (Insert Smiley) Laurie Laurie (Laurence) Moseley Plus Ultra Expert Systems, Decision-Making, Argentinian Tango & Golf |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
In message , martin
writes My wife grows vegetables on an allotment organically. She and other members use no chemicals. To me that's what organic is all about. how do their crops grow without water? -- dave @ stejonda |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:159427
"Kay Easton" wrote in message ... In article , Franz Heymann notfranz. writes "Mary Fisher" wrote in message et... A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety problems. But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-) Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity. Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill you in a few seconds. No! Really? Yes, really. "Irony doesn't work on usenet" ;-) True. Franz |
Banned Herbicides & Pesticides
Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:159428
"Laurie Moseley" wrote in message ... This is the problem. It's the usual trap of trying to make "I understand it in this way" mean "Everyone understands it in this way". That is one of the reasons why communication is often so poor. Could this be the basis for many divorces ? (Insert Smiley) How on earth are we supposed to know what you are talking about, when you have stripped off all headers and every vestige of context? Franz |
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