David Rance writes:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Pam Moore wrote:

Black Hamburg is the one I have on my allotment, and it only produces
(When it does!) fruit the size of blackcurrants and pippy! This is
the one which didn't flower at all this year, until NOW!

Black grapes won't do really well in the UK unless they're under
glass. Best to keep to white.

Looks at the Black Hamburg vine on the back wall of the house...

Looks at the 16kg of grapes picked last weekend...

I may be forced to disagree with you there. :-)

Anthony

David Rance writes:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Pam Moore wrote:

Black Hamburg is the one I have on my allotment, and it only produces
(When it does!) fruit the size of blackcurrants and pippy! This is
the one which didn't flower at all this year, until NOW!

Black grapes won't do really well in the UK unless they're under
glass. Best to keep to white.

Looks at the Black Hamburg vine on the back wall of the house...

Looks at the 16kg of grapes picked last weekend...

I may be forced to disagree with you there. :-)

Anthony

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Anthony wrote:

Black Hamburg is the one I have on my allotment, and it only produces
(When it does!) fruit the size of blackcurrants and pippy! This is
the one which didn't flower at all this year, until NOW!

Black grapes won't do really well in the UK unless they're under
glass. Best to keep to white.

Looks at the Black Hamburg vine on the back wall of the house...

Looks at the 16kg of grapes picked last weekend...

I may be forced to disagree with you there. :-)

You may well do so because there will always be examples of a
mini-climate where people are able to do the unusual. Perhaps I should
have said, "Black grapes won't *normally* do really well in the UK
unless they're under glass."

But you must remember that this is an exceptional year for grapes. I
harvested my (white) grapes in Northern France a good six weeks earlier
than usual at the end of August. My grapes here in Reading, though a
variety that doesn't really ripen until late October, are now ready for
picking. Some have a gravity of 1085 (as measured with my refractometer)
which is exceptional. I shall probably harvest them this weekend and
look forward to an outstanding wine!

It's also an exceptional year for cider apples (I also have a cider
orchard in Normandy). While cider apples normally fall from the trees in
October and one makes the cider around the beginning of December, I
noticed on the news on France 3 that many growers are finding the apples
have been falling for the last few weeks and that they are having to
make the cider now as the apples will not keep.

This year isn't typical - but with global warming it may become so!

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On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:26:59 +0100, David Rance
wrote:

But you must remember that this is an exceptional year for grapes.

So why didn't my well established vine flower at all this year? I cut
it back in winter as I always do. I grows in the open on my
allotment and is not in ideal position.
THINKS.... Can one move a vine which has been in the ground 10 - 12
years.

Pam in Bristol

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Pam Moore wrote:

But you must remember that this is an exceptional year for grapes.

So why didn't my well established vine flower at all this year? I cut
it back in winter as I always do.

Search me! Did it get caught by the frost. If that happens it will grow
out again but there won't be any flower trusses.

THINKS.... Can one move a vine which has been in the ground 10 - 12
years.

Probably not. The roots grow extensively and very quickly. Thus you
would never be able to lift a vine of that age without decimating the
root system.

Having said that, you can always try - if the alternative is getting rid
of it altogether.

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+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

"Pam Moore" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:26:59 +0100, David Rance
wrote:

But you must remember that this is an exceptional year for grapes.

So why didn't my well established vine flower at all this year? I cut
it back in winter as I always do. I grows in the open on my
allotment and is not in ideal position.
THINKS.... Can one move a vine which has been in the ground 10 - 12
years.

Pam in Bristol

"Pam Moore" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:26:59 +0100, David Rance
wrote:

But you must remember that this is an exceptional year for grapes.

So why didn't my well established vine flower at all this year? I cut
it back in winter as I always do. I grows in the open on my
allotment and is not in ideal position.
THINKS.... Can one move a vine which has been in the ground 10 - 12
years.

Pam in Bristol

I have moved an established vine - grown from a cutting - and I think it was
between 5 and 10 years old.

This will obviously stress the vine a lot - I cut it back to a stump and had
a devil of a job cutting all the roots to get it out.

I also watered it well after moving - put a vertical length of plastic
drainpipe down by the roots and watered regularly for the first month or so.

It has survived and is growing, but not vigorously.
However I replanted it in a shady area and it has not yet grown enough to
get the new growth into strong sunlight. I suspect that once this happens it
will be much more happy.

Growing in the open in an allotment - especially if you put up stakes and
wires to train the vine on - is an ideal situation because the vine should
get full sun all day long. This is how vines grow in vineyards.

Only if you are so far North that vines don't normally grow do you need
extra protection.

Having said that, vines can do better in the UK against a South facing wall,
and Black Hamburgh allegedly fares much better under glass.

Cutting vines back in Winter:

this is recommended for commercial grape growing, where you regularly
replace the fruiting wood and only grow a few bunches of grapes per plant.
It must, however, drain some energy from the plant (and works on the
assumption that there is plenty of light and food for the plant to grow
vigorously the next year).
If you want to crop more heavily (but perhaps not as efficiently) from a
single vine then I reckon that you can do pretty well by just removing the
spindly greenish bits and leaving most of the nut brown mature wood in
place.
This will give the vine a much better start the next year, and it will have
plenty of leaves early on instead of having to produce a lot of new growth.
Vines trained over pergolas tend to have a much larger structure because of
their dual role of shade in the summer and grape production. These can have
massive crops from a single vine. They probably also crop better in
poor/unusual years because they have more food reserves.

Just my humble opinion - much grape pruning is designed to deal with over
vigorous growth at the expense of fruiting.

Cheers
Dave R

P.S. in case you missed the other post - Brant not Black Hamburgh in my
garden.