On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:46:42 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from martin contains these words:

On 8 Oct 2003 20:31:24 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


From your other posting, it isn't the wind that will
worry them (a MERE force 9 is a trifle!

Force 9 is about as strong as it gets in UK most of the time, Force 10
is rare.

You've led a sheltered life :-)

not where I live we are quite windswept, hence the removal of our
silver birch. Looking around I saw that there is only one or two
silver birch left around here. When the houses were built almost every
garden had a silver birch planted in it. About half were uprooted in
gales some damaging house, the rest went the same way as our one.


Its a wind of 47-54 mph.

West Scotland had 60-70 mph winds last week.

it had "gusts" of 60-70 mph...

it had forecast winds force 8-9, just like we did two days ago.

This weekend, the central
belt (inland)is forecast to get 60 mph and the north, 70 mph. These are
unexceptional readings at this time of year and much less severe than
winter gales.

I already responded to that.

I suggest you look at the Met Office web site and check the forecasts.
Leave your umbrella at home.
:-)
--
Martin

The message
from martin contains these words:

and are the Western Isles covered in silver birch?

No, but they are by no means unknown now.

Eric the Red burnt Lewis and Harris from stern to stem because the
finest fighting galleys were built on the Islands.

Very few trees survived, and Lewis and Harris were what one of my
grilfiends described as 'A Moonscape' to date, and it is only recently
that much planting has taken place.

Digging peat, you usually uncover some of these tree roots, complete
with attached charcoal. If you're really lucky you find a bit of black
bog oak.

Other finds include stone tools and later artifacts. Someone I knew
found a Norse carved wooden cup.

--
Rusty Hinge
horrid·squeak&zetnet·co·uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

The message
from martin contains these words:

That depends where you are in the UK.

You can reckon an average of two hurricane force winds a year in the
Utter Hebrides. Here in East Angular I've only seen one.

is that where Bilbo lives?

No idea, but I thought it ought to be a burrow.....

--
Rusty Hinge
horrid·squeak&zetnet·co·uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:48:16 +0100, Jaques d'Altrades
wrote:

The message
from martin contains these words:

and are the Western Isles covered in silver birch?

No, but they are by no means unknown now.

They are not unknown in the Bollenstreek, especially on insurance
claim forms :-)
--
Martin

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:49:15 +0100, Jaques d'Altrades
wrote:

The message
from martin contains these words:

That depends where you are in the UK.

You can reckon an average of two hurricane force winds a year in the
Utter Hebrides. Here in East Angular I've only seen one.

is that where Bilbo lives?

No idea, but I thought it ought to be a burrow.....

Initially I read it as Bilko.... :-)
--
Martin

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:07:44 +0200, martin wrote:

Getting back to silver birches, if they are planted in sandy soil in
an exposed location, where there are extreme winds, then the wind will
eventually uproot them, especially if the leaves are still on the
trees.

Mmmmm. You must admit you've slowly shifted from your original catch-all
statement which Nick questioned; "They tend to blow over in gales."

The storm of 87 took out my father's greenhouse, two apple trees and a
pear tree which were at least thirty years old - but left the five
silver birches he'd planted fifteen years before (about five or ten
yards away) standing.

Cheers,
Dave

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:12:55 +0000 (UTC), Dave
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:07:44 +0200, martin wrote:

Getting back to silver birches, if they are planted in sandy soil in
an exposed location, where there are extreme winds, then the wind will
eventually uproot them, especially if the leaves are still on the
trees.

Mmmmm. You must admit you've slowly shifted from your original catch-all
statement which Nick questioned;

I have refined it :-)

"They tend to blow over in gales."

I only have experience of our local environment.
AFAIR Nick denied that they blew over in gales and tried to blame an
infection.


The storm of 87 took out my father's greenhouse, two apple trees and a
pear tree which were at least thirty years old - but left the five
silver birches he'd planted fifteen years before (about five or ten
yards away) standing.

Whilst the two apple trees in our neighbour's garden survived all
gales so far including several of hurricane force.
--
Martin

In article ,
martin wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:12:55 +0000 (UTC), Dave
wrote:

Getting back to silver birches, if they are planted in sandy soil in
an exposed location, where there are extreme winds, then the wind will
eventually uproot them, especially if the leaves are still on the
trees.

Mmmmm. You must admit you've slowly shifted from your original catch-all
statement which Nick questioned;

I have refined it :-)

And it is still very dubious.

"They tend to blow over in gales."

I only have experience of our local environment.
AFAIR Nick denied that they blew over in gales and tried to blame an
infection.

I said that they are one of the most gale-resistant of British trees
(they are), and that the most likely cause of them blowing over
preferentially to other trees is an infection. I stand by that.

One of the causes of trees and shrubs uprooting in wet weather is
fungal infection of the smallest roots; I can't say how important a
cause it is, but I have seen it more than once. And silver birches
are known to to dislike wet conditions. Also, a single sea gale can
cause this, because a low-level, one-off dose of salt in the winter
can damage the small roots, causing them to die off or become
infected (usually both). I know that this can happen directly and
by killing the mycorrhiza, and I know that birches are very keen on
mycorrhizal attachments.

This uproots them by removing the 'grip' on the soil, allowing the
large roots to slip through it (especially if it is sand). If the
damage happens in the dormant period, it will not necessarily be
noticeable, because the small roots contain very little reserves,
and can be rebuilt in a week or two in the spring. You can often
see this effect when digging up shrubs in the winter and replanting
them.

What I don't know is the relative frequencies and sensitivities of
all the above. But I do know that it is NOT the case that silver
birches "tend to blow over in gales" as a general rule - positively
the converse - and therefore there must be some systematic reason
why they did in your area.

Where do you live, anyway, that you feel that easterly gales are
severe (by UK standards)? They certainly aren't anywhere south
of Edinburgh. If you live in Aberdeen, then you have a point.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 9 Oct 2003 21:15:36 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
martin wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:12:55 +0000 (UTC), Dave
wrote:

Getting back to silver birches, if they are planted in sandy soil in
an exposed location, where there are extreme winds, then the wind will
eventually uproot them, especially if the leaves are still on the
trees.

Mmmmm. You must admit you've slowly shifted from your original catch-all
statement which Nick questioned;

I have refined it :-)

And it is still very dubious.

"They tend to blow over in gales."

I only have experience of our local environment.
AFAIR Nick denied that they blew over in gales and tried to blame an
infection.

I said that they are one of the most gale-resistant of British trees
(they are),
and that the most likely cause of them blowing over
preferentially to other trees is an infection. I stand by that.

I wouldn't have expected anything else. Do you have lots of experience
of silver birches in the environment I described?


One of the causes of trees and shrubs uprooting in wet weather is
fungal infection of the smallest roots; I can't say how important a
cause it is, but I have seen it more than once. And silver birches
are known to to dislike wet conditions. Also, a single sea gale can
cause this, because a low-level, one-off dose of salt in the winter
can damage the small roots, causing them to die off or become
infected (usually both). I know that this can happen directly and
by killing the mycorrhiza, and I know that birches are very keen on
mycorrhizal attachments.

This uproots them by removing the 'grip' on the soil, allowing the
large roots to slip through it (especially if it is sand). If the
damage happens in the dormant period, it will not necessarily be
noticeable, because the small roots contain very little reserves,
and can be rebuilt in a week or two in the spring. You can often
see this effect when digging up shrubs in the winter and replanting
them.

that's one possibility. Since the trees around here rip up a
substantial amount of sand, when they were blown over I think we can
rule out rotten roots. The roots don't slip through the sand the roots
are still in the sand after they have blown over.


What I don't know is the relative frequencies and sensitivities of
all the above. But I do know that it is NOT the case that silver
birches "tend to blow over in gales" as a general rule - positively
the converse - and therefore there must be some systematic reason
why they did in your area.

big gales
sand



Where do you live, anyway, that you feel that easterly gales are
severe (by UK standards)?

I didn't mention easterly gales.
Don't jump to conclusions!

They certainly aren't anywhere south
of Edinburgh.

Severe easterly gales never occur south of Edinburgh?
Can you quote a source?

If you live in Aberdeen, then you have a point.

I live 5 miles from the North Sea in the Netherlands.

In general, but not exclusively the gales are westerly.
--
Martin

In article ,
martin wrote:

that's one possibility. Since the trees around here rip up a
substantial amount of sand, when they were blown over I think we can
rule out rotten roots. The roots don't slip through the sand the roots
are still in the sand after they have blown over.

No, you can't. There are intermediate states between all roots being
healthy and all roots having rotted. Did you inspect them? How
closely? And using what methods?

If you live in Aberdeen, then you have a point.

I live 5 miles from the North Sea in the Netherlands.

In general, but not exclusively the gales are westerly.

I don't have precise figures, but I believe that the winds you get
are stronger than those East Anglia gets, but not as strong as the
west of the UK gets.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 9 Oct 2003 21:58:19 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
martin wrote:

that's one possibility. Since the trees around here rip up a
substantial amount of sand, when they were blown over I think we can
rule out rotten roots. The roots don't slip through the sand the roots
are still in the sand after they have blown over.

No, you can't.

Can't what?

There are intermediate states between all roots being
healthy and all roots having rotted. Did you inspect them? How
closely? And using what methods?

Eyeball. :-)

Would you like a sample next time one blows over. If so of what?

Would you agree that there is a risk of silver birch blowing over in
windy exposed sandy terrain, where the trees are exposed to salt
spray? I suppose that would include trees near to main roads and not
just close to the sea.


If you live in Aberdeen, then you have a point.

I live 5 miles from the North Sea in the Netherlands.

In general, but not exclusively the gales are westerly.

I don't have precise figures,

I can't find any real figures on the web, but I do know somebody who
could provide, them if you are really interested. I worked two years
at the Met Office in an earlier incarnation. There are books available
containing wind statistics. I looked for wind statistics on the web
before, for somebody living in a remote place who was considering wind
energy generated electricity.

but I believe that the winds you get
are stronger than those East Anglia gets, but not as strong as the
west of the UK gets.

On average, I agree. It depends very much on the wind direction. In
recent years we have gone from predominantly SW to NW, there has
either been no wind or in excess of force 3 since April this year. I
know because I sail a lot.
--
Martin

In article ,
martin writes:
|
| that's one possibility. Since the trees around here rip up a
| substantial amount of sand, when they were blown over I think we can
| rule out rotten roots. The roots don't slip through the sand the roots
| are still in the sand after they have blown over.
|
| No, you can't.
|
| Can't what?

Rule out rotten roots.

As silver birch's roots normally extend a VERY long way, and are
very strong (birch roots are a traditional binding material), it
is almost certain that either the tree's roots had not developed
normally or many or most of the smaller roots will have broken
when the tree blew over. That is odd, and the question is which
and why.

| There are intermediate states between all roots being
| healthy and all roots having rotted. Did you inspect them? How
| closely? And using what methods?
|
| Eyeball. :-)
|
| Would you like a sample next time one blows over. If so of what?

Not really. I am not kitted out to test. If I was there immediately
afterwards, I might use a magnifying glass and nose, but even a day's
delay would almost eliminate the chances of doing that successfully.

| Would you agree that there is a risk of silver birch blowing over in
| windy exposed sandy terrain, where the trees are exposed to salt
| spray? I suppose that would include trees near to main roads and not
| just close to the sea.

I have never seen it but, obviously, there is a chance. What is
certain is that there has to be some reason why the trees behaved
differently for you than they do over almost all of the UK. I
don't know the coast of East Anglia well enough to know whether
there are or are not many of them in exposed locations there.

From other sources, I know that salt spray can cause damage to
roots and mycorrhiza - not surprisingly.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 10 Oct 2003 08:08:19 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
martin writes:
|
| that's one possibility. Since the trees around here rip up a
| substantial amount of sand, when they were blown over I think we can
| rule out rotten roots. The roots don't slip through the sand the roots
| are still in the sand after they have blown over.
|
| No, you can't.
|
| Can't what?

Rule out rotten roots.

ah! In that case I won't

As silver birch's roots normally extend a VERY long way, and are
very strong (birch roots are a traditional binding material), it
is almost certain that either the tree's roots had not developed
normally or many or most of the smaller roots will have broken
when the tree blew over. That is odd, and the question is which
and why.

the fact that the water table varies from being three feet to zero
feet below the surface could have some influence. :-)

What's surprising is that the survivor in a garden in the middle of
our block of houses is doing remarkably well. It's as high as the
houses and must be about 30 years old. It is sheltered on all sides by
houses. I didn't mention that our silver birch was planted 4 metres
from our house. Gardens are small in the Netherlands.


| There are intermediate states between all roots being
| healthy and all roots having rotted. Did you inspect them? How
| closely? And using what methods?
|
| Eyeball. :-)
|
| Would you like a sample next time one blows over. If so of what?

Not really. I am not kitted out to test. If I was there immediately
afterwards, I might use a magnifying glass and nose, but even a day's
delay would almost eliminate the chances of doing that successfully.

| Would you agree that there is a risk of silver birch blowing over in
| windy exposed sandy terrain, where the trees are exposed to salt
| spray? I suppose that would include trees near to main roads and not
| just close to the sea.

I have never seen it but, obviously, there is a chance. What is
certain is that there has to be some reason why the trees behaved
differently for you than they do over almost all of the UK. I
don't know the coast of East Anglia well enough to know whether
there are or are not many of them in exposed locations there.

From other sources, I know that salt spray can cause damage to
roots and mycorrhiza - not surprisingly.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

--
Martin

In article ,
martin writes:
|
| As silver birch's roots normally extend a VERY long way, and are
| very strong (birch roots are a traditional binding material), it
| is almost certain that either the tree's roots had not developed
| normally or many or most of the smaller roots will have broken
| when the tree blew over. That is odd, and the question is which
| and why.
|
| the fact that the water table varies from being three feet to zero
| feet below the surface could have some influence. :-)

Indeed it could! Both Bean and Clapham, Tutin and Warberg make
it very clear that (in the UK) the silver birch does not like
very wet conditions. In those conditions, it is the common birch
that thrives.

| What's surprising is that the survivor in a garden in the middle of
| our block of houses is doing remarkably well. It's as high as the
| houses and must be about 30 years old. It is sheltered on all sides by
| houses. I didn't mention that our silver birch was planted 4 metres
| from our house. Gardens are small in the Netherlands.

If the problem IS the water table, it is amazing how much difference
a few inches makes. Equally well, just the odd drain nearby can
mean all the difference between waterlogging and merely being wet.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 10 Oct 2003 08:38:30 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
martin writes:
|
| As silver birch's roots normally extend a VERY long way, and are
| very strong (birch roots are a traditional binding material), it
| is almost certain that either the tree's roots had not developed
| normally or many or most of the smaller roots will have broken
| when the tree blew over. That is odd, and the question is which
| and why.
|
| the fact that the water table varies from being three feet to zero
| feet below the surface could have some influence. :-)

The level of the water table is maintained by almost continuous
pumping in these parts.


Indeed it could! Both Bean and Clapham, Tutin and Warberg make
it very clear that (in the UK) the silver birch does not like
very wet conditions. In those conditions, it is the common birch
that thrives.

| What's surprising is that the survivor in a garden in the middle of
| our block of houses is doing remarkably well. It's as high as the
| houses and must be about 30 years old. It is sheltered on all sides by
| houses. I didn't mention that our silver birch was planted 4 metres
| from our house. Gardens are small in the Netherlands.

If the problem IS the water table, it is amazing how much difference
a few inches makes. Equally well, just the odd drain nearby can
mean all the difference between waterlogging and merely being wet.

It's odd that they planted so many. Even odder is that they planted
mainly elm to replace the trees that disappeared as firewood during
the hunger winter of 1944. They were all planted at about the same
time and they have all gone rotten at about the same time. In a few
years they will be back to square one.
--
Martin