Hello all

Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

In the greenhouse they farm those little scabby things
on an indoor grapevine (had to rub them off between thumb and finger)
and greenfly on my (now crippled) tomato seedlings.
I`ve watched them doing it.
On apple trees I've watched the little perishers
collecting aphids on the outermost tips of the branches.

Is there anything I can do (apart from the boiling oil) ?
Is there some odour they can't stand ?
Do they have no natural enemies - apart from me - and ant-eaters
which are a bit rare round here ?

Thanks for any non-toxic suggestions.
from Ray

In article ,
Raymond RUSSELL wrote:


Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

Yes.

In the greenhouse they farm those little scabby things
on an indoor grapevine (had to rub them off between thumb and finger)
and greenfly on my (now crippled) tomato seedlings.
I`ve watched them doing it.
On apple trees I've watched the little perishers
collecting aphids on the outermost tips of the branches.

No, they don't farm them - they follow them. Ignore the ants as an
irrelevance - if the scale insects and aphids are there, the ants
will follow; and conversely. I use them as a mealybug indicator
in my conservatory :-)

Is there anything I can do (apart from the boiling oil) ?
Is there some odour they can't stand ?
Do they have no natural enemies - apart from me - and ant-eaters
which are a bit rare round here ?

Lots, but they have been around for quite a long time. They do very
little harm (and quite a lot of good) in the garden, and are best
ignored. Use a borax-based poison for nests that start raiding the
kitchen, digging up the patio or otherwise making an excessive
nuisance of themselves, and otherwise live with them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Raymond RUSSELL
writes

Hello all

Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

You're too dry. Come and live in wet yorkshire - we have *no* problem
with ants. I don't think we even have ants.

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

On 3 May 2004 19:04:41 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
Raymond RUSSELL wrote:


Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

Yes.

In the greenhouse they farm those little scabby things
on an indoor grapevine (had to rub them off between thumb and finger)
and greenfly on my (now crippled) tomato seedlings.
I`ve watched them doing it.
On apple trees I've watched the little perishers
collecting aphids on the outermost tips of the branches.

No, they don't farm them - they follow them. Ignore the ants as an
irrelevance - if the scale insects and aphids are there, the ants
will follow; and conversely. I use them as a mealybug indicator
in my conservatory :-)

Is there anything I can do (apart from the boiling oil) ?
Is there some odour they can't stand ?
Do they have no natural enemies - apart from me - and ant-eaters
which are a bit rare round here ?

Lots, but they have been around for quite a long time. They do very
little harm (and quite a lot of good) in the garden, and are best
ignored. Use a borax-based poison for nests that start raiding the
kitchen, digging up the patio or otherwise making an excessive
nuisance of themselves,
I use boiling water. It seems like the quickest way to do it and it's the only thing
that's worked for us.

and otherwise live with them.
Agreed!

Liz

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Raymond RUSSELL
writes

Hello all

Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

You're too dry. Come and live in wet yorkshire - we have *no*
problem
with ants. I don't think we even have ants.

Agreed. I used to fight an annual fight with ants in the wrong places
in Surrey, and have not seen a solitary one since we moved to
Wensleydale fifteen years ago.
Our problem is midges. But they harm the gardener, not the garden

Franz

On 3 May 2004 19:04:41 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Raymond RUSSELL wrote:


Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

Yes.

In the greenhouse they farm those little scabby things
on an indoor grapevine (had to rub them off between thumb and finger)
and greenfly on my (now crippled) tomato seedlings.
I`ve watched them doing it.
On apple trees I've watched the little perishers
collecting aphids on the outermost tips of the branches.

No, they don't farm them - they follow them. Ignore the ants as an
irrelevance - if the scale insects and aphids are there, the ants
will follow; and conversely. I use them as a mealybug indicator
in my conservatory :-)

Is there anything I can do (apart from the boiling oil) ?
Is there some odour they can't stand ?
Do they have no natural enemies - apart from me - and ant-eaters
which are a bit rare round here ?

Lots, but they have been around for quite a long time. They do very
little harm (and quite a lot of good) in the garden, and are best
ignored. Use a borax-based poison for nests that start raiding the
kitchen, digging up the patio or otherwise making an excessive
nuisance of themselves, and otherwise live with them.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

They do protect some aphids. I've seen (presumably) young pale aphids being
nurtured in a few nests I've dug up in winter. They overwinter them in the
nest and bring them out onto the young shoots in spring. The ants often
drive off potential predators, so allowing the aphids to increase. So it's
not exactly farming, more like shepherding.

--
Tim C.

In article m,
Tim Challenger "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" writes:
|
| They do protect some aphids. I've seen (presumably) young pale aphids being
| nurtured in a few nests I've dug up in winter. They overwinter them in the
| nest and bring them out onto the young shoots in spring. The ants often
| drive off potential predators, so allowing the aphids to increase. So it's
| not exactly farming, more like shepherding.

Are you sure that you weren't confusing dairy and beef cattle?

Both may well occur, but your "often" is definitely wrong. At most,
"sometimes". I have enquired in several contexts about this, and
even entymologists are very uncertain about exactly what the ants
are doing with the aphids in the UK[*], and in what proportion of
cases. Unlike in the tropics, there is minimal evidence for much
in the way of shepherding, let alone farming - proof of association
(which, as you say, there is) is not even good evidence of causality.

What there is no evidence for at all, and some evidence against,
is that killing ants helps to reduce aphid infestations. This is
pretty strong evidence that, if the protection actions occur, they
are not very effective.
[*] Except that the tabloids' usual innuendo is implausible.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 4 May 2004 08:16:58 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article m,
Tim Challenger "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" writes:
|
| They do protect some aphids. I've seen (presumably) young pale aphids being
| nurtured in a few nests I've dug up in winter. They overwinter them in the
| nest and bring them out onto the young shoots in spring. The ants often
| drive off potential predators, so allowing the aphids to increase. So it's
| not exactly farming, more like shepherding.

Are you sure that you weren't confusing dairy and beef cattle?
:-)

Both may well occur, but your "often" is definitely wrong. At most,
"sometimes".
Maybe I got lucky. They were in at least every third or fourth nest I dug
into (normally accidentally) during the winter. A small sample admittedly.

I have enquired in several contexts about this, and
even entymologists are very uncertain about exactly what the ants
are doing with the aphids in the UK[*], and in what proportion of
cases.
In my experience entymologists can't even agree on which pub to go to.
Seriously though, I have spent a number of hours with a beer watching them
on the plants and I've seen them moving aphids around in their jaws -
especially the apple tree, for some reason. They tend to pick them up at
the rear somehow or maybe by a leg - I can never quite see - and carry them
some distance to a seemingly random spot.

Unlike in the tropics, there is minimal evidence for much
in the way of shepherding, let alone farming - proof of association
(which, as you say, there is) is not even good evidence of causality.
True. I understand the distinction.

What there is no evidence for at all, and some evidence against,
is that killing ants helps to reduce aphid infestations. This is
pretty strong evidence that, if the protection actions occur, they
are not very effective.
That does seem to be the case. I'm hoping the blue tits nesting in the
apricot tree will polish off a few aphids for me.

Still they don't bother me much and don't seem to do any noticeable damage,
the biggest nuisance is them in the lawn.

[*] Except that the tabloids' usual innuendo is implausible.
Yuck! ;-)

--
Tim C.

On Tue, 4 May 2004 07:52:12 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Raymond RUSSELL
writes

Hello all

Much as I admire their amazing organizational talents,
ants are becoming more than serious competitors to us humans
- at least they are in our greenhouse and fruit garden.
Is the planet perhaps one huge ant-nest ?

You're too dry. Come and live in wet yorkshire - we have *no*
problem
with ants. I don't think we even have ants.

Agreed. I used to fight an annual fight with ants in the wrong places
in Surrey, and have not seen a solitary one since we moved to
Wensleydale fifteen years ago.

That is what's known as a tactical withdrawal, rather than a victory
:-)

Our problem is midges. But they harm the gardener, not the garden

let DET be your friend.
:-)

"........You're too dry. Come and live in wet yorkshire - we have *no*
problem with ants. I don't think we even have ants........"

Nice try but we are plagued with ants and ant hill throughout the lawns and
grass and we have a rainfall of around 80 inches a year.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

In article , David Hill david@abacusn
urseries.freeserve.co.uk writes
"........You're too dry. Come and live in wet yorkshire - we have *no*
problem with ants. I don't think we even have ants........"

Nice try but we are plagued with ants and ant hill throughout the lawns and
grass and we have a rainfall of around 80 inches a year.


I don't mind the ants except for the bloody great mounds in the lawn,
these are big solid masses about a foot across
--
David

On Tue, 4 May 2004 22:18:09 +0100, David Hill wrote:

"........You're too dry. Come and live in wet yorkshire - we have *no*
problem with ants. I don't think we even have ants........"

Nice try but we are plagued with ants and ant hill throughout the lawns and
grass and we have a rainfall of around 80 inches a year.

Ah, you must have a lawn of ant-grass (Aristida oligantha) or it's the
bog-ant (Formica palus) ;-)

--
Tim C.