"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:42:06 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Helen" wrote in message
. au...
Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have
feelings - some
said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they
were
sure
they did. What do you think?

Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems.

First show us yours :-)

I can let you know where they reside. Is that enough information to
make my point?
{:-))

Franz
--
Martin

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:45:51 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from Stephen Howard contains these words:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:16:49 +1000, "Helen" wrote:

Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some
said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure
they did. What do you think?

I think it unlikely.
Evolution makes use of whatever advantages it can lay its hands on -
and in the case of animals it's made very good use of the range of
feelings that we might term 'instincts'.

Had the same been true for plants then you might find that your
courgettes would kick you in the shins when you tried to pick
them...or your sweet peas slap you round the face when you tried to
cut the blooms.
They've been around a great deal longer than us, so it's fair to
assume that if they haven't evolved in this fashion by now then they
never will.

What about nettles, thorny things and poisonous plants? They might not
be able to kick you in the shins (though I've met docks that could
wrestle a grown man to the ground) but they have evolved a means to
resist "attack".

That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one.
The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of
defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at
discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a
little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a
mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ).

Having said all that, I'm pretty sure my Heliotropes are sulking...

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

Stephen Howard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:45:51 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:


The message

from Stephen Howard contains these words:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:16:49 +1000, "Helen" wrote:

Recently I saw a programme about whether or not plants have feelings - some
said "of course they don't" and there were others who said they were sure
they did. What do you think?


I think it unlikely.
Evolution makes use of whatever advantages it can lay its hands on -
and in the case of animals it's made very good use of the range of
feelings that we might term 'instincts'.

Had the same been true for plants then you might find that your
courgettes would kick you in the shins when you tried to pick
them...or your sweet peas slap you round the face when you tried to
cut the blooms.
They've been around a great deal longer than us, so it's fair to
assume that if they haven't evolved in this fashion by now then they
never will.

What about nettles, thorny things and poisonous plants? They might not
be able to kick you in the shins (though I've met docks that could
wrestle a grown man to the ground) but they have evolved a means to
resist "attack".


That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one.
The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of
defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at
discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a
little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a
mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ).

Having said all that, I'm pretty sure my Heliotropes are sulking...

Regards,



If I may steal an idea from an ancient philosopher, how do you know that
nettles do not sting unless something brushes against them?

--
Please do not reply by Email, as all
emails to this address are automatically deleted.

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in
message ...
The message
from Martin contains these words:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:42:06 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems.

First show us yours :-)

I hope you're not suggesting Franz's memory and sensibility might
be
compared with those of a turnip?

It is moving in that general direction at an alarmingly rapid rate of
increase, but as best I can judge, I am not quite there yet.

Franz

In article , Broadback
writes in answer to someone else

That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one.
The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of
defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at
discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a
little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a
mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ).

If I may steal an idea from an ancient philosopher, how do you know that
nettles do not sting unless something brushes against them?

What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but
reacts to a live and buzzing fly?

OK, you may say that is mechanical, but then so are all our senses when
you look at them closely enough.

--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article , Broadback
writes
If it is ever proved that plants have feelings, and can feel pain what
on earth are veggies going to do? :-(

The same as non-veggies do knowing that animals feel pain.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Sacha
writes
Do you remember there was something written about experiments in this line?
Was it in The Secret Life of Plants? I seem to recall something about a
scientist burning the leaf of a plant with a cigarette and then the plant
was hooked up to electrodes to register its 'reactions'. When the same man
entered the room again there was - apparently - a distinct reaction from the
plant. I may not be remembering this very clearly but it was along those
lines.

'The Secret Life of Plants' was compiled by Peter Tompkins and
Christopher Bird in 1973. It was published by Allen Lane for Penguin
Books as ISBN 0 7139 0594 8. Though it quoted an exhaustive bibliography
of scientific and non-scientific material it was seen as a somewhat
tongue in cheek attempt to open up the subject of plant feelings.
Reading it put me firmly in the pro Plant life/rights/feelings camp.

This group conducted a very comprehensive discussion begun by me of the
issues involved in [IIRC] late 1997 under the title 'A Philospohical
Approach'. I learned much from that long thread about gardeners'
reactions to the idea of plants having feelings, but little firm
evidence one way or the other about the OT. Little seems to have changed
since then.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes
Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems.

Tell me that they do not sleep at night, or hibernate in winter.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Janet Baraclough.
.. writes
I hope you're not suggesting Franz's memory and sensibility might be
compared with those of a turnip?

More likely a Kohl Rabi.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes
Please define "feelings" before going f into this particular
pseudo-philosophical direction.

Corporal or emotional reactions.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Janet
Baraclough.
. writes
I hope you're not suggesting Franz's memory and sensibility might
be
compared with those of a turnip?

More likely a Kohl Rabi.

{:-))

Franz

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes
Show me the plant's memory and nervous systems.

Tell me that they do not sleep at night, or hibernate in winter.

Neither photosensitivity nor temperature-sensitive behaviour are
indicative of the presence of intelligent behaviour.
Have you ever come across shape memory solids?
Have you considered that humble water also hibernates when the
temperature drops below 0 deg C?
Have you considerd the fact that a solar cell also goes to sleep at
night?

Franz

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes
Please define "feelings" before going f into this particular
pseudo-philosophical direction.

Corporal or emotional reactions.

No.
Water reacts corporally by becoming steam at a suitable combination of
pressure and temperature.
A torch battery reacts corporally by refusing to pass a current
through a light bulb when certain chemical changes have occurred in
it.
Would you like more contra-indications?

I challenge you to design an experiment which would prove that a plant
has any emotional reactions. The concept is an emergent phenomenon
which can only be described at all in the case of higher animals.

Franz

On 14/8/04 20:45, in article , "Alan
Gould" wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes
Do you remember there was something written about experiments in this line?
Was it in The Secret Life of Plants? I seem to recall something about a
scientist burning the leaf of a plant with a cigarette and then the plant
was hooked up to electrodes to register its 'reactions'. When the same man
entered the room again there was - apparently - a distinct reaction from the
plant. I may not be remembering this very clearly but it was along those
lines.

'The Secret Life of Plants' was compiled by Peter Tompkins and
Christopher Bird in 1973. snip
But was it in that book that the experiment I'm thinking of was cited? Do
you recall?
--

Sacha

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:39:33 +0100, Kay
wrote:

In article , Broadback
writes in answer to someone else

That's true - but the system they've evolved is an 'always on' one.
The presence of 'feelings' would surely give rise to a range of
defence/attack mechanisms that would be brought into play at
discretion, in reaction to certain conditions...in the same way that a
little terrier can be a cute, fluffy ball of fun one minute, and a
mass of sharp, pointy teeth the next ( or is that just my dog? ).

If I may steal an idea from an ancient philosopher, how do you know that
nettles do not sting unless something brushes against them?

You mean in the sense that they leap out and jump you?
Could be right there...I always seem to end up getting stung, even
when I know exactly where the nettles are.

What about Venus fly trap, which ignores a prod with a pencil, but
reacts to a live and buzzing fly?

That it can discriminate is perhaps down to a array of finely honed
sensors. I'd bet it wouldn't do so well with, say, an artist's
brush...unless it reacts to a range of frequencies that might be set
up by the beating of an insect's wing?

OK, you may say that is mechanical, but then so are all our senses when
you look at them closely enough.

True...in the sense that there's a reaction to a stimulus, but having
an emotional response is an entirely different kettle of fish ( and
thereby hangs yet another debate ).

Regards ( currently consoling a depressed courgette ),



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk