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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:09:15 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote: The honey or jam was to help it go down, but in restoring some of the sugar which the liver under attack wasn't providing, it gave some credence to the antidote hypothesis) Latterly, intravenous sugars are (unless I'm *VERY* out of date) always administered to restore the blood-sugar levels to normal... People with liver failure are very vulnerable to hypoglycaemia and this is watched for very very closely. Treatment is usually by a steady infusion of 10% glucose with higher concentrations as needed.Intermittent boluses are used but only when needed not as a regular item. Any one on ITU would almost certainly receive glucose as a routine infusion ...rather than just routinely. By the way you don't need ( indeed there are reasons not to) mix glucose with saline. Maybe other sugars are used now, or other preservative. I *WAS* quoting from the (presumably first edition) 1959 impression. The difference between fluid management and ITU care from 1959 and the present day is as big as the diferences between the PC you sre sitting in front of now and the one you would have used in 1960. Glucose ( AKA dextrose ) is virtually the only one used. Mannitol very rarely for special reasons but nowt else Sorry - while copying that I missed out the 4% (glucose) 4% glucose 0.18% saline is mainly used in paediatrics for volume reasons it means in kids you can match salt given to the childs size. I think we got to this point because someone suggested that there was still no treatment - no sure-fire cure, I'd agree, but treatments which improve the chances of survival there are. Improve survival yes but my point is these treatments are non specific and as such very chancy. If you are poisoned with nerve gas ( or insecticide) you get pralidoxime which is a direct antidote. Morphine you get naloxone, paracetamol N-acetylcysteamine and so on ( but for very few more). With Amanita poisoning you get those things which help your liver and kidneys cope until they heal themselves. Your survival hinges much more on time taken to recognise the poison than on a "cure". To call this a treatment is to elevate routine supportive measures which I agree are vital and successful to the level of an antidote they are not. Neil |
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The message
from (Neil) contains these words: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:09:15 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote: The honey or jam was to help it go down, but in restoring some of the sugar which the liver under attack wasn't providing, it gave some credence to the antidote hypothesis) Latterly, intravenous sugars are (unless I'm *VERY* out of date) always administered to restore the blood-sugar levels to normal... People with liver failure are very vulnerable to hypoglycaemia and this is watched for very very closely. Treatment is usually by a steady infusion of 10% glucose with higher concentrations as needed.Intermittent boluses are used but only when needed not as a regular item. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that this was a *VERY* elderly 'cure'. /snip/ Improve survival yes but my point is these treatments are non specific and as such very chancy. If you are poisoned with nerve gas ( or insecticide) you get pralidoxime which is a direct antidote. Morphine you get naloxone, paracetamol N-acetylcysteamine and so on ( but for very few more). But we aren't discussing general panaceas - the discussion was very specific. I quote from your earlier post: ---------------------- As this was originally about lawn mushrooms and what follows is undiluted science I offer an apolgy for being a little off topic and indigestible but I think the ungarnished science is a salutary reminder. There is no magic serum or curative treatment just some that tip the odds more in your favour. The following is the current published medical data and basically the treatment for Amanita poisoning is that which any big hopsital with a renal unit , transfusion unit and ITU would offer. The last resort is a liver transplant. with lifelong immunosupression to follow. ------------------------ And that's where the sugar bit took off. With Amanita poisoning you get those things which help your liver and kidneys cope until they heal themselves. Your survival hinges much more on time taken to recognise the poison than on a "cure". To call this a treatment is to elevate routine supportive measures which I agree are vital and successful to the level of an antidote they are not. I don't think we differ there. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
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