On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:00:27 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 23:00, in article , "ex WGS
Hamm" wrote:

snip
You talk as though foxes were not shot before the ban. They were.So if they
are suffering from gangrene now because inexpert marksmen are shooting them,
nothing has changed.


Yes, it has. More are being killed now than were being killed before.

It's actually illegal to kill foxes out of spite. If you know any pro
hunt nuts taking it out on the wildlife then let us know and we'll
ensure they are dealt with by the authorities.

On 21/11/04 11:28 am, in article , "Dorian"
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:00:27 +0000, Sacha
wrote:

On 20/11/04 23:00, in article , "ex WGS
Hamm" wrote:

snip
You talk as though foxes were not shot before the ban. They were.So if they
are suffering from gangrene now because inexpert marksmen are shooting them,
nothing has changed.


Yes, it has. More are being killed now than were being killed before.

It's actually illegal to kill foxes out of spite. If you know any pro
hunt nuts taking it out on the wildlife then let us know and we'll
ensure they are dealt with by the authorities.


Apparently, the law is that you may not search for foxes but you may flush
them out. As the web site to which I gave you the link shows, nothing that
is being done is illegal. I don't live in Scotland and so I don't know any
of these people - like yourself I am at liberty to read and to learn.
So it appears that what is now happening is that older foxes which have gone
to ground are remaining alive, while younger foxes which have merely taken
cover, are being killed. Nobody is shooting foxes 'out of spite' because
nobody killed them for that reason in the first place. Killing foxes - or
rabbits, or magpies, or crows, or whatever - is part of countryside
management. And that is what the *farmers* are doing. Only now they are
being forced by the anti-hunt nuts to do it in such a way as to make it
probable that the foxes are dying in great pain and larger numbers. There's
a success story for you!
Of course, urban foxes are in danger of being poisoned if they mess up
peoples' gardens and I imagine the same applies to country foxes, too. All
will die in agony but you won't see it happen, will you. So it won't be
'real'. And other creatures, like the badger we had to shoot two years ago,
will pick up the poison and die in pain, as well. Excellent result. Well
done.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 8:39, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:53:40 +0000, Andy
wrote:

Look. If you stop 'em hunting foxes they will go back to hunting
peasants like myself. I'm too old for it now. So let 'em hunt foxes
for fox sake.

Hunting royalty and aristocrats is becoming a popular pass time.

How right you a

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".
This is seen as a startling admission which undermines efforts to portray
the ban as caring about foxes. And it came as Home Secretary, Blunkett,
indicated that the government won't be harsh about those who defy the ban in
the first few weeks after its introduction on 19 February.
This tactic is seen as a ploy by Ministers who wanted to see a ban delayed
until after the general election.
Mr Bradley said Labour MPs wanted to wipe out 'the old order': "We ought at
last to own up to it: the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war. This was not about the
politics of envy but the politics of power. Ultimately, it's about who
governs Britain."
Tory environment spokesman James Gray said "It is typical of ~Tony Blair's
government to spend all its time fighting an old-fashioned class war when
all the rest of the country wants them to do is fight crime and tackle the
problems that really matter."
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 11:16, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

snip

I am anti blood sports because IMO they are barbaric. It has nothing
to do with me fighting a class war. It's got little to do with class,
many none aristocrats also take part in blood sports.

I think it's unarguable that many people feel there are much more important
issues facing this country than fox hunting, though.
But that aside, while you may realise that a lot of non-aristocrats hunt,
there is absolutely no question that for many it IS a class issue and has
been portrayed as such. Think of John Prescott's past comments, for a
start.
You only have to read some of the rubbish that's been posted here to realise
that people intend to cling to that belief and will not accept that most
hunts are peopled by pub owners, local postmen, farmers etc. and not by
aristocracy or landed gentry.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

"It was class war. But it was not class war as we know it. It was not
launched by the tribunes against the toffs - it was the other way round.
This was not about the politics of envy, but the politics of power.
Ultimately it's about who governs Britain," the MP wrote.

To make himself clear, Mr Bradley, who is an unpaid parliamentary
private secretary to Alun Michael, the rural affairs minister,
maintained that the countryside demonstrations had been about the fast-
eroding power of the landed classes, not about the real countryside.
"That's why they oppose the right to roam and a ban on hunting. For them
it's ownership of property, especially land, and not citizenship, that
confers privilege," he wrote. "





--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 22/11/04 11:16, in article
,
"Martin" wrote:

snip

I am anti blood sports because IMO they are barbaric. It has
nothing
to do with me fighting a class war. It's got little to do with
class,
many none aristocrats also take part in blood sports.

I think it's unarguable that many people feel there are much more
important
issues facing this country than fox hunting, though.

And the government *is* dealing with them. About as incompetently as
it has been dealing with the hunting problem.

[snip]

Franz

snip


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.

Kept in wooden shed at night but do tell me how do I keep them safe in day
time when they had free run of the garden and pond where they were attacked
by a bold dog fox who lives on the golf course and wanders through
everyones gardens at his leisure.

On 22/11/04 13:46, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

snip
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

On 22/11/04 14:25, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote:


snip
And the government *is* dealing with them. About as incompetently as
it has been dealing with the hunting problem.

[snip]

Franz


Which is not *quite* what most of us have in mind, I think!
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

"Diane Epps" wrote in message
...

snip


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks
are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare
poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself
for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.

Kept in wooden shed at night but do tell me how do I keep them safe
in day
time when they had free run of the garden and pond where they were
attacked
by a bold dog fox who lives on the golf course and wanders through
everyones gardens at his leisure.

Who said what here, and why?

Franz

In article , Sacha
writes
the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war.

No, no, Sacha . . . 'perceived class' war!!!!!!!!
These people know absolutely *nothing* about hunting or the types of
people who hunt.
We don't have any blue blooded huntsmen in our local hunt.
Just ordinary people . . lorry drivers, butchers, teachers, farmers etc
etc.
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

In message , Jane Ransom
scribes
In article , Sacha
writes
the struggle over the Bill was not just about animal
welfare and personal freedom, it was class war.

No, no, Sacha . . . 'perceived class' war!!!!!!!!
These people know absolutely *nothing* about hunting or the types of
people who hunt.
We don't have any blue blooded huntsmen in our local hunt.
Just ordinary people . . lorry drivers, butchers, teachers, farmers etc
etc.

Just ordinary people who find entertainment in the chase of an animal to
its death.
--
Snowy

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 22/11/04 13:46, in article ,
"Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare
a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael,
said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a
chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

Then it was clearly a biased website, and you might consider dropping
it.
It's a pity you snipped the quotation which Kay gave. It was highly
cogent to the discussion.

Franz

In article , Sacha
writes
On 22/11/04 13:46, in article , "Kay"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

The ban on foxhunting is about a class war and not animal welfare a member
of the Government admitted last night.
Peter Bradley an aide to Rural Affairs Minister Alun Michael, said his
fellow Labour MPs felt so strongly about hunting because it was a chance to
"take on the gentry".

That's not quite what he said!

It was according to the web site I read!

That may be what your web site said, but it was not what Peter Bradley
said. The bit I quoted was taken from his article in the Sunday
Telegraph:

"Now that hunting has been banned, we ought at last to own up to it: the
struggle over the Bill was not just about animal welfare and personal
freedom, it was class war.

But it was not class war as we know it. It was not launched by the
tribunes against the toffs - it was the other way round. This was not
about the politics of envy but the politics of power. Ultimately it's
about who governs Britain. ... For them it's ownership of property,
especially land, and not citizenship that confers privilege. "

You can read the full article on the Telegraph website.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

On 11/20/04 2:57 PM, in article , "ex
WGS Hamm" wrote:


"Diane Epps" wrote in message
k...

"Joe" wrote in message
...
For those of you who have an interest in the urban fox.

http://www.thefoxproject.fsnet.co.uk/

Joe
.
Yes I am interested but only in how to get rid of them. They just
killed
my ducks by biting their heads off, didn't eat them just killed them for
sport. I do hope we are not headed for the Spanish experience where
people leave poison bait out which is a danger to domestic dogs who have
to be muzzled or kept on a lead to prevent them form eating the bait. I
have dogs so this is not an option so I guess I will have to look for
someone with a gun.


Alternatively practise good animal husbandry and ensure your ducks are
securely shut away at night in fox proof housing. I breed rare poultry and
have not lost any to the fox. If I did I would be blaming myself for not
providing secure accommodation for the livestock in my care.


Good point. Taking responsibility! Owning the problem! Not blaming someone
else....well done!
But I'm wondering... "have not lost any to the fox..." The fox? There is
only one fox? Must be a biggie...
Bill