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In article , Lazarus
Cooke writes Remember, 'pork', 'beef' and 'mutton' were all foreign words once. But not any more. The meat has the name of the animal in the language of the conquering classes who ate it, while the animal retains the language of the conquered who grew it. At least it works for boeuf and mouton, but I'm not sure where pork comes from - the latin? - is it the modern french that has moved away? -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
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In article , Kay
wrote: In article , Lazarus Cooke writes Remember, 'pork', 'beef' and 'mutton' were all foreign words once. But not any more. The meat has the name of the animal in the language of the conquering classes who ate it, while the animal retains the language of the conquered who grew it. Exactly At least it works for boeuf and mouton, but I'm not sure where pork comes from - the latin? - is it the modern french that has moved away? No- you still talk about 'un porc' in french. Lazarus -- Remover the rock from the email address |
wrote in message ... On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:44:53 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: . .. On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:17:15 +0000, Sacha wrote: All they had to do was cancel lunch hours in France. The Russians would never have got through. ;-) :-) Why were they preparing for a Russian invasion long after the cold war was over? This was 1974. but there wasn't a channel tunnel in 1974, or was there a secret one we didn't know about? No, but it was on the cards, so they were planning/brainstorming for what would happen when it was in place. Unusual government foresight, normally you'd expect the invasion to happen via the chunnel and then the civil service to be completely surprised that such a thing could happen. -- Tumbleweed email replies not necessary but to contact use; tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com |
When did everybody start calling a tidal wave a tsunami and why?
When they learnt the difference. A tidal wave is something completely different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. Regards, Stuart |
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:49:11 +0000, Sacha
wrote: Alors, revenons a nos moutons......... (old French proverb) ;-) Seeing the length of this thread, shouldn't that be 'Alors, revenons a nos jardins.......(old URG proverb). :-) -- Chris E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net |
In article , Chris Hogg
wrote: On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:49:11 +0000, Sacha wrote: Alors, revenons a nos moutons......... (old French proverb) ;-) Seeing the length of this thread, shouldn't that be 'Alors, revenons a nos jardins.......(old URG proverb). :-) Or perhaps "il faut cultiver son jardin"? L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
A tidal wave is something completely
different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. For the last time, it is not. Get hold of a dictionary and look up the meaning. Maybe its a common use of it, but its not correct, as those of us with degrees in geology know. It may have become an alternative name for those who don't know better, but the original meaning is quite different. Regards, Stuart |
In article ,
Stuart wrote: A tidal wave is something completely different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. For the last time, it is not. Get hold of a dictionary and look up the meaning. Maybe its a common use of it, but its not correct, as those of us with degrees in geology know. It may have become an alternative name for those who don't know better, but the original meaning is quite different. It is perfectly correct, as you would know if you had a degree in English - or even a better working knowledge of it. As C.P. Snow pointed out (correctly), few scientists do, though not as few "arts and humanities" people that have an understanding of science. Incidentally, I am one of neither class, though an academic :-) The English language is defined by its usage, and the OED reflects that. In geological jargon, they may be different, but this group is uk.rec.gardening, and we use primarily normal English, secondarily horticulural jargon and tertiarily botanical Latin. Plus many other dialects, argots and cants, of course. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
In article , Sacha
writes On 5/1/05 17:41, in article , "Kay" wrote: In article , Lazarus Cooke writes Remember, 'pork', 'beef' and 'mutton' were all foreign words once. But not any more. The meat has the name of the animal in the language of the conquering classes who ate it, while the animal retains the language of the conquered who grew it. At least it works for boeuf and mouton, but I'm not sure where pork comes from - the latin? - is it the modern french that has moved away? The Latin is porcus = hog or swine, though cooked pork in Italian is maiale. Alors, revenons a nos moutons......... (old French proverb) ;-) So did the Normans use 'porcus' or some close derivative? And the modern French move on from there? Or did we pick up 'pork' independently? -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In article , Lazarus
Cooke writes In article , Kay wrote: In article , Lazarus Cooke writes Remember, 'pork', 'beef' and 'mutton' were all foreign words once. But not any more. The meat has the name of the animal in the language of the conquering classes who ate it, while the animal retains the language of the conquered who grew it. Exactly At least it works for boeuf and mouton, but I'm not sure where pork comes from - the latin? - is it the modern french that has moved away? No- you still talk about 'un porc' in french. What is the english translation of that? Is it 'pig' or 'pork'? -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
The English language is defined by its usage, and the OED reflects
that. In geological jargon, they may be different, but this group is uk.rec.gardening, and we use primarily normal English, secondarily horticulural jargon and tertiarily botanical Latin. My apologies to you all. I had thought that maybe some people might want to know some proper definitions of things that were being discussed, as common misconceptions can cause confusion. Now scientists will have to come up with a new definition for tidal wave to prevent it being confused with a tsunami. Regards, Stuart |
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On 5/1/05 23:28, in article , "Kay"
wrote: In article , Lazarus Cooke writes snip No- you still talk about 'un porc' in french. What is the english translation of that? Is it 'pig' or 'pork'? A pig in French is "un cochon" and the dictionary gives "un porc" too. I've never heard the latter used to describe a pig but only to describe the meat as in "cotelette de porc" for example. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.co.uk South Devon (remove the weeds to email me) |
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-- (remove the troll to reply) Always look on the bright side of life (De do, de do, de doody doody do) wrote in message ... On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 21:35:32 +0000, Martin Brown wrote: Chris Hogg wrote: On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 13:21:24 +0100, wrote: When did everybody start calling a tidal wave a tsunami and why? Why not use the Japanese word for earthquake too? AIUI, the term 'tidal wave' is strictly incorrect, as the wave has nothing to do with tides, unlike some other waves such as the Severn Bore. Tsunami is the 'correct' term (even though we all know what a tidal wave is). It apparently means 'harbour wave', which sounds just as inappropriate. That is correct. "Tidal wave" in English gives entirely the wrong impression. Just before a big tsunami strikes the sea drains away rapidly from the shoreline for a short while. Anyone living in a tsunami prone region should know that this means run for high ground. Tsunami is basically correct. In Japanese. The English term is "tidal wave". They are an artefact of the deep water shockwave running into ever more shallow coastal waters, harbour and beach. Well out to sea in deep water the effect is much less. The word used until ten years ago was tidal wave, everybody understood what that meant. Google and you will find "Tsunamis. "Tsunami" is the Japanese word meaning tidal wave. ... General information, "Tsunami" is the Japanese word meaning tidal wave. ..." The two words are interchangeable. Japanese for earthquake is "jishin". By no means unpronouncable but the English language version is not misleading and so remains in use. I can't see any merit in using Japanese terms, when English terms already exist. -- Martin I despair sometimes! a tidal wave is caused by the action of the tidal calendar, which can be made worse by wind and storms, but what happened in the south seas was NOT tidal, for heavens sake! and to describe them as such would be wrong. If tsunami is not to your liking then call it a big wave, freak wave or giant wave, don't call it a tidal wave! Our language develops because of new words so accept it! The word "tsunami" describes the wave no more that our word for the automobile, but most people say use the term "car". |
[quote=Nick Maclaren]In article ,
wrote: but there wasn't a channel tunnel in 1974, or was there a secret one we didn't know about? ***** I have not read on here, so I'm probably repeating what has already been said: There was a building attempt in 1974, but, as usual, we Brits got scared and pulled out after several miles had been dug, much to the dismay of the French. |
[quote=Kay]In article but I'm not sure where pork
comes from - the latin? - is it the modern french that has moved away? I don't know either, but in German, it is Schwein, as in the similar English word Swine (except that the 'W' is pronounced like a 'V'). |
[quote=Kay]In article ,
writes[color=blue][i] Douglas, I don't know what you are posting with, ***** A computer? ;-) ***** but you must notice that it's impossible to identify your part of the text when you reply to posts? I'm slow here to get the hang of things, but I usually show my reply by warking it with stars. I tend to reply to bits of the message individually instead of saying it all at the end. i'm sure I will improve eventually. |
It was in use long before anybody with or without a geology degree had
heard of the word tsunami in UK. At primary school more than 20 years ago I was taught the difference between a tsunami and a tidal wave. To say they're interchangeable smacks of dumbing down to me. Confusing the two is like calling a spider an insect or am astronomer an astrologer. Ok, plenty people make the mistake, but that doesn't make it right. Regards, Stuart |
"Stuart" wrote in message ... A tidal wave is something completely different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. For the last time, it is not. Get hold of a dictionary and look up the meaning. Maybe its a common use of it, but its not correct, as those of us with degrees in geology know. It may have become an alternative name for those who don't know better, but the original meaning is quite different. Interesting. What, then, would you say is the 'correct' meaning of 'tidal wave', and why do you think that to be the 'original' meaning? (All this, of course, is yet more evidence in favour of the proposition that 'tidal wave' is much more likely to be misunderstood than 'tsunami') |
In article ,
Stuart wrote: It was in use long before anybody with or without a geology degree had heard of the word tsunami in UK. At primary school more than 20 years ago I was taught the difference between a tsunami and a tidal wave. To say they're interchangeable smacks of dumbing down to me. Assuming that English words have unique meanings, irrespective of context, is the result of being exposed only to dumbed-down teaching. Assuming that a self-selected cabal has the right to define the meaning of words is either ignorance or arrogance. You get a very good example of this in statistics. People with a minimal exposure (e.g. "Statistics for geologists") often get on their high horses about correlation being used for non-linear association. More qualified and experiences statisticians don't. We know that every field uses words differently, and that normal English usage is not scientific usage. Confusing the two is like calling a spider an insect or am astronomer an astrologer. Ok, plenty people make the mistake, but that doesn't make it right. Insect (1589). An animal with its body divided into segments (from animalia insecta). Its original meaning and one of its two main standard meanings in normal English includes essentially all of the arthropoda. Zoologists use it to refer to the insecta alone (e.g. not including the arachnida), but would have done better to follow the botanists and stick with Latin for such precise use, to avoid ambiguity. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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"BAC" wrote in message ... "Stuart" wrote in message ... A tidal wave is something completely different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. For the last time, it is not. Get hold of a dictionary and look up the meaning. Maybe its a common use of it, but its not correct, as those of us with degrees in geology know. It may have become an alternative name for those who don't know better, but the original meaning is quite different. Interesting. What, then, would you say is the 'correct' meaning of 'tidal wave', and why do you think that to be the 'original' meaning? (All this, of course, is yet more evidence in favour of the proposition that 'tidal wave' is much more likely to be misunderstood than 'tsunami') The Severn Bore is a tidal wave. |
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message ... "BAC" wrote in message ... "Stuart" wrote in message ... A tidal wave is something completely different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. For the last time, it is not. Get hold of a dictionary and look up the meaning. Maybe its a common use of it, but its not correct, as those of us with degrees in geology know. It may have become an alternative name for those who don't know better, but the original meaning is quite different. Interesting. What, then, would you say is the 'correct' meaning of 'tidal wave', and why do you think that to be the 'original' meaning? (All this, of course, is yet more evidence in favour of the proposition that 'tidal wave' is much more likely to be misunderstood than 'tsunami') The Severn Bore is a tidal wave. Yes, I have heard it referred to as a 'tidal wave', or a surge wave, and, in fact the Concise OED definition of a tidal bore refers to a 'tidal wave', although the same dictionary's definition of 'tidal wave' doesn't refer to a 'tidal bore' but to an abnormally large ocean wave caused by an underwater volcano or earthquake. So, 'tidal wave' can mean either tidal bore or tsunami, depending on the context. Each meaning is 'correct'. Hence I remain of opinion it is probably less confusing to refer to a tsunami as a tsunami rather than a tidal wave, even though I have to acknowledge that one of the accepted meanings of tidal wave is the same thing as a tsunami. |
In article , Douglas Douglas.1i
writes[color=blue][i] Kay Wrote: In article , writes Douglas, I don't know what you are posting with, ***** A computer? ;-) ***** but you must notice that it's impossible to identify your part of the text when you reply to posts? I'm slow here to get the hang of things, but I usually show my reply by warking it with stars. I tend to reply to bits of the message individually instead of saying it all at the end. i'm sure I will improve eventually. Hey! Not one single bit of what you quoted was written by me, despite the attribution! You're absolutely right to reply to each bit individually - that's the convention in this newsgroup, and makes it a lot easier to follow the argument than with the top posting convention generally used in business emails. If you were posting here directly instead of via garden banter, you would be using a newsreader program. I use Turnpike (as do many others) and when I hit 'reply' it automatically inserts '' before each line of the text I am replying to (with more ''s for each successive previous poster) - Therefore the number of ''s at the beginning of the line tells you which person said what. This is a general newsgroup convention and is what allows us to see who said what when we're all interleaving replies. In addition, when I read a post, Turnpike displays all text with a '' in red and just the last author's contribution, with no '', in black. So when your posts turn up with '' at the beginning of each line, they are displayed in red. It's compounded by the fact your posts have the same number of '' as the previous poster - so, as was said above, it is totally impossible to identify your contribution ... or was, until you explained your personal convention of using stars. I don't know how gardenbanter works, but other people seem to have managed to suss out how to get the ''s working - perhaps you could ask in gardenbanter how they do it? -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
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In article , Sacha
writes On 5/1/05 23:28, in article , "Kay" wrote: In article , Lazarus Cooke writes snip No- you still talk about 'un porc' in french. What is the english translation of that? Is it 'pig' or 'pork'? A pig in French is "un cochon" and the dictionary gives "un porc" too. I've never heard the latter used to describe a pig but only to describe the meat as in "cotelette de porc" for example. Taken with your other post, it suggests either the Normans were using 'un porc' for the pig and we picked up it up for the meat, and that French moved on to 'cochon' later, or that the normans used 'porc' for the meat only. Either way around fits into the pattern. What about 'poultry'? Am I right in thinking it's derived from 'poulet'? -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
Stuart wrote:
A tidal wave is something completely different to a tsunami, but a lot of people don't seem to realise this. For the last time, it is not. Get hold of a dictionary and look up the meaning. Maybe its a common use of it, but its not correct, as those of us with degrees in geology know. It may have become an alternative name for those who don't know better, but the original meaning is quite different. Regards, Stuart Hi, reading your reply, I was hoping you would actually explain what the difference is ... In my dictionary tidal wave: 1. a nontechnical name for tsunami 2. an unusually large incoming wave, often caused by high winds and spring tides tsunami a huge destructive wave, esp one caused by an earthquake. Also called: tidal wave. Does this mean that in the common use they are synonymous, but only tsunami is really caused by earthquakes? Regards Griz |
In article , Kay writes: | | Taken with your other post, it suggests either the Normans were using | 'un porc' for the pig and we picked up it up for the meat, and that | French moved on to 'cochon' later, or that the normans used 'porc' for | the meat only. Either way around fits into the pattern. But the French HAVEN'T moved on to 'cochon'! 'porc' is a near-synonym. A search indicates that was true in 1694. 'porceau' then as now is a young pig. | What about 'poultry'? Am I right in thinking it's derived from 'poulet'? Nearly. 'poultier' hence 'poulter' - a person who cared for the poultry. They have the same root as 'poulet'. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
In message , Tumbleweed
writes wrote in message .. . On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:44:53 -0000, "Tumbleweed" wrote: ... On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:17:15 +0000, Sacha wrote: All they had to do was cancel lunch hours in France. The Russians would never have got through. ;-) :-) Why were they preparing for a Russian invasion long after the cold war was over? This was 1974. but there wasn't a channel tunnel in 1974, or was there a secret one we didn't know about? No, but it was on the cards, so they were planning/brainstorming for what would happen when it was in place. Unusual government foresight, normally you'd expect the invasion to happen via the chunnel and then the civil service to be completely surprised that such a thing could happen. No that would be the military. -- hugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting |
In message , griz
writes reading your reply, I was hoping you would actually explain what the difference is ... In my dictionary tidal wave: 1. a nontechnical name for tsunami 2. an unusually large incoming wave, often caused by high winds and spring tides tsunami a huge destructive wave, esp one caused by an earthquake. Also called: tidal wave. Does this mean that in the common use they are synonymous, but only tsunami is really caused by earthquakes? Following this discussion, I though I would surf around a few European newspapers to see what they have done: Le Monde, which I would have expected to use a French word, seems to use tsunami; Der Spiegel seems to refer to Flut - flood; in Spanish papers I saw 'maremoto' which is, I think, tidal wave; Corriere della Sera has tsunami; and Hungarians use a word that roughly translates as 'leaping flood'. -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
In article , Klara
wrote: in Spanish papers I saw 'maremoto' which is, I think, tidal wave; "Seaquake" - the marine equivalent of 'terremoto' - earthquake. L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
In article , Nick Maclaren
wrote: But the French HAVEN'T moved on to 'cochon'! 'porc' is a near-synonym. A search indicates that was true in 1694. 'porceau' then as now is a young pig. Thanks Nick. I think I said this when I first mentioned the word. 'un porc' - a pig. L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
In article , Lazarus
Cooke writes In article , Nick Maclaren wrote: But the French HAVEN'T moved on to 'cochon'! 'porc' is a near-synonym. A search indicates that was true in 1694. 'porceau' then as now is a young pig. Thanks Nick. I think I said this when I first mentioned the word. 'un porc' - a pig. You didn't - you just mentioned 'un porc' but didn't say whether it was the pig or the meat ... 'cos I asked you that question in the next post ;-) -- Kay "Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river" |
In message , Lazarus
Cooke writes In article , Klara wrote: in Spanish papers I saw 'maremoto' which is, I think, tidal wave; "Seaquake" - the marine equivalent of 'terremoto' - earthquake. Ah - that makes sense! Thanks. -- Klara, Gatwick basin |
On 6/1/05 17:17, in article , "Kay"
wrote: In article , Sacha writes On 5/1/05 23:28, in article , "Kay" wrote: In article , Lazarus Cooke writes snip No- you still talk about 'un porc' in french. What is the english translation of that? Is it 'pig' or 'pork'? A pig in French is "un cochon" and the dictionary gives "un porc" too. I've never heard the latter used to describe a pig but only to describe the meat as in "cotelette de porc" for example. Taken with your other post, it suggests either the Normans were using 'un porc' for the pig and we picked up it up for the meat, and that French moved on to 'cochon' later, or that the normans used 'porc' for the meat only. Either way around fits into the pattern. What about 'poultry'? Am I right in thinking it's derived from 'poulet'? Do I get a grade for this? ;-) Poult (according to the same dictionary) is the young of domestic fowl and game birds XV. Middle English, pult, contr. of poulet PULLET So (arch.) poulter Old French pouletier extended to poulterer XVII prob. After poultry, earlier pulletrie etc. -- Sacha (remove the weeds for email) |
And what's more, if an asteroid the size of Africa hits us we'll all be
killed........and what's more if we all wait long enough we're all going to die anyway. There are no asteroids that size. The largest is Ceres, which is about 1000km in diameter. Regards, Stuart |
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