I would like opinions on whether an application of sulphur will turn soil to
acidic or not. Does it work and are their any side effects?

Alex

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:40:53 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:

I would like opinions on whether an application of sulphur will turn soil to
acidic or not. Does it work and are their any side effects?

I've never used sulphur, but.....

A soil is alkaline nearly always because of the its mineral content,
usually chalk (aka lime). Some soils only contain a small amount of
chalk and are mildly alkaline (say pH 7 - 7.5), while other types
contain large amounts of chalk and are, relatively speaking, strongly
alkaline (say pH 7.5 and above).

As long as there is free chalk in the soil, it will be alkaline.

In order to make the soil acid, you have to dissolve or otherwise
remove the chalk. This is not a simple undertaking.

A mildly alkaline soil can be made a little less so by adding lots of
organic matter as peat or compost. As the organic matter rots down, it
liberates acids that will temporarily lower the acidity of the soil.
But unless you regularly add more compost etc. the soil will
eventually revert to its mildly alkaline state. Over many years,
repeated application of compost may bring about a more-or-less
permanent change in the alkalinity.

Sulphur works in a way similar to compost, in that it slowly oxidises
in the air and releases sulphur acids (sulphurous and sulphuric,
mostly the former) into the soil. But eventually the sulphur will be
used up and a repeat application will be necessary, but how long this
takes, I don't know. How long is a piece of string?

The biggest problem with alkaline soils is that certain trace elements
are immobilised by the alkaline conditions, so cannot be taken up by
plants in sufficient quantity for their needs. Iron is the obvious
trace element here, but availability of manganese can also be a
problem. Ericaceous plants (rhododendrons, azaleas, camellias, some
heathers) have a high demand for iron and cannot flourish on alkaline
soils without help, whereas other plants with a more modest
requirement can grow very well. But iron and manganese can be supplied
artificially in a complexed form that ericaceous plants can absorb,
when it remains mobile in the soil and can be taken up by the roots.
There are several fertilisers available in garden centres that contain
these complexed trace elements. Look for ones particularly formulated
for ericaceous plants, or containing sequestered or complexed iron and
manganese. But one application has only a limited life, and you have
to re-apply at regular intervals.

Some of these fertilisers claim to acidify the soil: it is highly
unlikely that they do (but I've never actually done any tests). But
they will allow you to grow acid loving plants on an alkaline soil,
and their claims about changing the acidity are just the product of an
over-zealous marketing department!

For a mildly alkaline soil, I'd go for the complexed trace element
route with lots of extra compost, rather than adding sulphur. If
you're on a heavy chalk soil, you're really trying to push water
uphill.



--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

"Alex Woodward" wrote in message
...
:I would like opinions on whether an application of sulphur will turn soil
to
: acidic or not. Does it work and are their any side effects?
:
: Alex
:
I used sulphur tablets under my camellia. Not sure if it worked and I'm
still not sure if it was that ,that made it lose a lot of leaves. They soon
came back again but just a word of warning that it may have side effects

"Alex Woodward" wrote in message
...
I would like opinions on whether an application of sulphur will turn soil
to
acidic or not. Does it work and are their any side effects?



Don't wate your time or money. If you try to fight against nature - nature
will win every time.

Grow thing that thrive in your soil. If you want to grow acid lovers, plant
them in containers with the approprite soil.

--
Regards,
Alan.

Preserve wildlife - Pickle a SQUIRREL to reply.

[quote=Alan Gabriel]"Alex Woodward" wrote in message
...
I would like opinions on whether an application of sulphur will turn soil
to
acidic or not. Does it work and are their any side effects?



Don't wate your time or money. If you try to fight against nature - nature
will win every time.

Grow thing that thrive in your soil. If you want to grow acid lovers, plant
them in containers with the approprite soil.

--
Regards,
Alan.
QUOTE]
I agree with you that it's pointless trying to change the underlying character of your soil, e.g. if you garden on shallow chalk, you'll never be able to plant out your camellias. However, sometimes the soil is alkaline due to human intervention. Our very long London garden was full of buried builders' rubble, which took us months to dig out. The soil is consequently very alkaline, and as it's predominantly heavy clay, I think it'll take quite a long time to wash out. We've been adding lots of leafmould, composted bark, etc., but I'm wondering how long it will take before the soil reverts to a more neutral pH.

The garden is surrounded by mature, deciduous trees and has quite a "woodland" feel to it. I would love to be able to plant out some of our Acer palmatum which are growing in pots, but I don't think I'll be able to do so for a few years. If there's any chance that adding sulphur will help, then I'm tempted to try it on at least a small area.

I curse those builders.

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:40:53 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:

I would like opinions on whether an application of sulphur will turn soil
to
acidic or not. Does it work and are their any side effects?

I've never used sulphur, but.....

A soil is alkaline nearly always because of the its mineral content,
usually chalk (aka lime). Some soils only contain a small amount of
chalk and are mildly alkaline (say pH 7 - 7.5), while other types
contain large amounts of chalk and are, relatively speaking, strongly
alkaline (say pH 7.5 and above).

As long as there is free chalk in the soil, it will be alkaline.

In order to make the soil acid, you have to dissolve or otherwise
remove the chalk. This is not a simple undertaking.

A mildly alkaline soil can be made a little less so by adding lots of
organic matter as peat or compost. As the organic matter rots down, it
liberates acids that will temporarily lower the acidity of the soil.
But unless you regularly add more compost etc. the soil will
eventually revert to its mildly alkaline state. Over many years,
repeated application of compost may bring about a more-or-less
permanent change in the alkalinity.

Sulphur works in a way similar to compost, in that it slowly oxidises
in the air and releases sulphur acids (sulphurous and sulphuric,
mostly the former) into the soil. But eventually the sulphur will be
used up and a repeat application will be necessary, but how long this
takes, I don't know. How long is a piece of string?

The biggest problem with alkaline soils is that certain trace elements
are immobilised by the alkaline conditions, so cannot be taken up by
plants in sufficient quantity for their needs. Iron is the obvious
trace element here, but availability of manganese can also be a
problem. Ericaceous plants (rhododendrons, azaleas, camellias, some
heathers) have a high demand for iron and cannot flourish on alkaline
soils without help, whereas other plants with a more modest
requirement can grow very well. But iron and manganese can be supplied
artificially in a complexed form that ericaceous plants can absorb,
when it remains mobile in the soil and can be taken up by the roots.
There are several fertilisers available in garden centres that contain
these complexed trace elements. Look for ones particularly formulated
for ericaceous plants, or containing sequestered or complexed iron and
manganese. But one application has only a limited life, and you have
to re-apply at regular intervals.

Some of these fertilisers claim to acidify the soil: it is highly
unlikely that they do (but I've never actually done any tests). But
they will allow you to grow acid loving plants on an alkaline soil,
and their claims about changing the acidity are just the product of an
over-zealous marketing department!

For a mildly alkaline soil, I'd go for the complexed trace element
route with lots of extra compost, rather than adding sulphur. If
you're on a heavy chalk soil, you're really trying to push water
uphill.
..
You've given me lots of information to absorb there Chris - many thanks!

I planted a number of Heathers last June. They range from winter to Summer
flowering. I am fairly certain some are supposed to be tolerant to alkaline
soils, but quite a few have started to wither away. They have been planted
in a clay soil, but I've mixed peat and an alternative ericaceous compost to
improve it. The bed itself is on a small incline, so it drains quite well.

Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

Alex

In article , Alex Woodward
writes
Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

You can get some idea by what grows around. Do neighbours grow
rhododendrons, for example, and what are your commonest weeds?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

Kay wrote:
In article , Alex Woodward
writes
Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think
there is a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not
tested
the ph level of the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

You can get some idea by what grows around. Do neighbours grow
rhododendrons, for example, and what are your commonest weeds?

What she said. Don't bother with soil-testing kits: for many people
they're just a waste of money. If there are signs of alkaline soil,
when you buy heaths and heathers, always ask the seller if they're
lime-tolerant: the winter-flowering ones (Ericas carnea and
darleyensis) are particularly handy. Never buy a Calluna variety:
they're the real heathers, and can't eat lime. Needless to say,
decline with thanks and go somewhere else if the dealer won't or
can't tell you.

If you think of them as tiny shrubs, it helps generate the patience
you may need: they don't grow all that quickly, so as long as they're
looking healthy you're probably doing the right thing. I like them in
groups of half a dozen or more of the same variety, not too crowded;
but that's just me.

Mike.

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:03:47 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:


I planted a number of Heathers last June. They range from winter to Summer
flowering. I am fairly certain some are supposed to be tolerant to alkaline
soils, but quite a few have started to wither away. They have been planted
in a clay soil, but I've mixed peat and an alternative ericaceous compost to
improve it. The bed itself is on a small incline, so it drains quite well.

Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

Chris has pretty well covered it. The problem you're having seems to
be very similar to what we're seeing here in a bed of winter flowering
(lime tolerant heathers)planted in similar conditions to yours. I'm
suspecting a water borne fungal infection with ours, such as
Phytophthora cinnamomi - this is a root rot often carried by
irrigation water on nursery standing beds, so depending on how your
plants were grown they could have come to you already infected. In our
case it's exacerbated by less than perfect drainage. This is just a
guess on my part with minimal evidence so it's no reason to go
accusing the nursery. With ours some of the roots weren't good when we
got them and having seen the nursery's production beds I'm prepared to
believe that is a possible cause.

=================================================

Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alex Woodward
writes
Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there
is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

You can get some idea by what grows around. Do neighbours grow
rhododendrons, for example, and what are your commonest weeds?

My nearest neighbour has grown heathers quite successfully over a three year
period. Though I can't remember seeing any of them withering during their
first year, unlike mine. However, my neighbours are south facing while mine
get a couple of hours of sun on a north facing bed.

Alex

"Rod" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:03:47 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:


I planted a number of Heathers last June. They range from winter to Summer
flowering. I am fairly certain some are supposed to be tolerant to
alkaline
soils, but quite a few have started to wither away. They have been planted
in a clay soil, but I've mixed peat and an alternative ericaceous compost
to
improve it. The bed itself is on a small incline, so it drains quite well.

Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there
is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

Chris has pretty well covered it. The problem you're having seems to
be very similar to what we're seeing here in a bed of winter flowering
(lime tolerant heathers)planted in similar conditions to yours. I'm
suspecting a water borne fungal infection with ours, such as
Phytophthora cinnamomi - this is a root rot often carried by
irrigation water on nursery standing beds, so depending on how your
plants were grown they could have come to you already infected. In our
case it's exacerbated by less than perfect drainage. This is just a
guess on my part with minimal evidence so it's no reason to go
accusing the nursery. With ours some of the roots weren't good when we
got them and having seen the nursery's production beds I'm prepared to
believe that is a possible cause.

=================================================

I've just had a look at the roots of one and I've spotted what looks like
small yellow shell like eggs in the roots system. When crushed there is a
whitish substance inside. They are no bigger than 1mm in diameter, maybe a
touch smaller. Any ideas what they may be - and should I be worried?

Alex

In article , Alex Woodward
writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alex Woodward
writes
Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there
is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

You can get some idea by what grows around. Do neighbours grow
rhododendrons, for example, and what are your commonest weeds?

My nearest neighbour has grown heathers quite successfully over a three year
period.

Flowering all year, or just the winter ones? Have you asked the
neighbour whether they are erica or Calluna?

Though I can't remember seeing any of them withering during their
first year, unlike mine. However, my neighbours are south facing while mine
get a couple of hours of sun on a north facing bed.

Ours are growing happily on the N side of the house, with early morning
and late evening sun in summer, and no sun between Sep and March
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article , Alex Woodward
writes
I've just had a look at the roots of one and I've spotted what looks like
small yellow shell like eggs in the roots system. When crushed there is a
whitish substance inside. They are no bigger than 1mm in diameter, may

Slow release fertiliser pellets?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alex Woodward
writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alex Woodward
writes
Perhaps I should give them more time to establish, or do you think there
is
a problem with the soil? I have to admit I have not tested the ph level
of
the soil - which is an obvious mistake I suppose.

You can get some idea by what grows around. Do neighbours grow
rhododendrons, for example, and what are your commonest weeds?

My nearest neighbour has grown heathers quite successfully over a three
year
period.

Flowering all year, or just the winter ones? Have you asked the
neighbour whether they are erica or Calluna?

Well, they are flowering now so I guess they must be the winter/spring
variety.


Though I can't remember seeing any of them withering during their
first year, unlike mine. However, my neighbours are south facing while
mine
get a couple of hours of sun on a north facing bed.

Ours are growing happily on the N side of the house, with early morning
and late evening sun in summer, and no sun between Sep and March

Pretty much the same conditions as mine are experiencing by the looks of it.
I think that must eliminate that issue at least. Thanks.

Alex

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alex Woodward
writes
I've just had a look at the roots of one and I've spotted what looks like
small yellow shell like eggs in the roots system. When crushed there is a
whitish substance inside. They are no bigger than 1mm in diameter, may

Slow release fertiliser pellets?

I have absolutely no idea, if they are I certainly did not feed them. Having
said that, when I initially planted them last year I gave them a small dose
of 'growmore' and are small white solid grains.

Alex