"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?
John

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done humanely
and without causing pain or fear,and drowning is likely to be slow, terror
inducing and as stressful as possible. Totally unaceptable IMO.

On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:09 +0100, pammyT wrote:

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done
humanely and without causing pain or fear,

On that basis ordinary rat poison can hardly be called humane, it is
not a nice death.

I do agree that drowning is not really acceptable. Shoot or hit over
the head or wring it's neck. If you can't kill by the latter two
methods then perhaps you shouldn't be killing in the first place.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The message om
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:
On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:09 +0100, pammyT wrote:

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done
humanely and without causing pain or fear,

On that basis ordinary rat poison can hardly be called humane, it is
not a nice death.

It depends on the poison. Strychnine might fit your bill, but I think
it's illegal, except for killing moles. Warfarin is humane, in that the
rat/mouse &c is slowly weakened by continuous slight bleeding from the
villi in the small intestine. It gets weaker and lapses into a coma,
then dies.

There is no pain involved.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:39:15 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Warfarin is humane, in that the rat/mouse &c is slowly weakened by
continuous slight bleeding from the villi in the small intestine. It
gets weaker and lapses into a coma, then dies.

There is no pain involved.

Have you seen a poisoned rat just before it "lapses into a coma"? I
have, it was not happy, wheezing, hardly able to move, bleeding from
the mouth, nose and ears. It looked in pain to me, certainly not just
quietly falling asleep and dieing. I put it out of it's misery with a
whack to the back of the head.

This was common "off the shelf" Rentokil Rat & Mouse killer active
ingredient bromadiolone rather than warfarin itself. They both act in
the same manner though by blocking the Vitamin K dependant synthesis
of prothrombin.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The message om
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:
On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:39:15 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Warfarin is humane, in that the rat/mouse &c is slowly weakened by
continuous slight bleeding from the villi in the small intestine. It
gets weaker and lapses into a coma, then dies.

There is no pain involved.

Have you seen a poisoned rat just before it "lapses into a coma"? I
have, it was not happy, wheezing, hardly able to move, bleeding from
the mouth, nose and ears. It looked in pain to me, certainly not just
quietly falling asleep and dieing. I put it out of it's misery with a
whack to the back of the head.

Seen many times - thousands, even. I used to have a smallholding, and
later, I lived for some years on a large farm.

This was common "off the shelf" Rentokil Rat & Mouse killer active
ingredient bromadiolone rather than warfarin itself. They both act in
the same manner though by blocking the Vitamin K dependant synthesis
of prothrombin.

Yup. And by the time they get to the state you describe they are barely
concious.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
It depends on the poison. Strychnine might fit your bill, but I think
it's illegal, except for killing moles.

Strychnine is one of the more disagreeable poisons. I do not
think it is humane at all. It is also highly dangerous to the
general population, and persistent.

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

It depends on the poison. Strychnine might fit your bill, but I think
it's illegal, except for killing moles.

Strychnine is one of the more disagreeable poisons. I do not
think it is humane at all. It is also highly dangerous to the
general population, and persistent.

This is true, and the reason why pest control people have to be licensed
to acquire it.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:36:09 +0100, pammyT wrote:

IIRC the killing of any animal whether vermin or not, must be done
humanely and without causing pain or fear,

On that basis ordinary rat poison can hardly be called humane, it is
not a nice death.

I do agree that drowning is not really acceptable. Shoot or hit over
the head or wring it's neck.

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,
which is not easy to obtain under the present state of law.

So, I'm afraid it's back to drowning.

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

I do agree that drowning is not really acceptable. Shoot or hit over
the head or wring it's neck.

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,
which is not easy to obtain under the present state of law.

So, I'm afraid it's back to drowning.

A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

I used to kill squirrels (and rabbits) with headshots from a very old
air rifle I bought very secondhand in the early '60s (It probably dates
from around 1920) and it's still going strong. (Though with a new spring
and plunger.)

I use a pre-charged magazine one now, with a big 'scope, but it's no
more effective, except in the dusk or dark.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
(dispatching trapped squirrels)
A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
there's the question of ricochets as well.

Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

(dispatching trapped squirrels)
A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
there's the question of ricochets as well.

Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Depends how good a shot you are, and the distance you are shooting from.

We don't bother to trap squirrels, but shoot them in the plantations.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

(dispatching trapped squirrels)
A decent air rifle is more than adequate, and needs no licence. An air
pistol is sufficient for dispatching them in traps.

Hm, I'm not sure that this would necessarily be quick, or safe. They
tend to dash about in the cage (*understatement*), so an instantly
fatal shot is very difficult, which might lead to some suffering -
there's the question of ricochets as well.

Perhaps this out to go in a reference document, like the c4t5 one.

Depends how good a shot you are, and the distance you are shooting from.

We don't bother to trap squirrels, but shoot them in the plantations.

Oooh, painful. A head shot is quicker.
--
All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
-- E. Rutherford

On Fri, 06 May 2005 21:06:36 GMT, Alan Holmes wrote:

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,

For an air pistol? Even a small one is plenty powerful enough from 6".
Pin the little bar steward down with a stick through the cage bars to
stop it leaping about and blat...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Fri, 06 May 2005 21:06:36 GMT, Alan Holmes wrote:

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the things,

For an air pistol? Even a small one is plenty powerful enough from 6".
Pin the little bar steward down with a stick through the cage bars to
stop it leaping about and blat...

You might, just, be able to stop it leaping about, but it would still
wriggle about which would prevent you getting a clear shot, the chances are
high that all you would do is to wound it, which would cause it greater
pain.


--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Alan Holmes wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Fri, 06 May 2005 21:06:36 GMT, Alan Holmes wrote:

One problem here is that you need a gun licence to shoot the
things,

For an air pistol? Even a small one is plenty powerful enough from
6". Pin the little bar steward down with a stick through the cage
bars to stop it leaping about and blat...

You might, just, be able to stop it leaping about, but it would
still
wriggle about which would prevent you getting a clear shot, the
chances are high that all you would do is to wound it, which would
cause it greater pain.

And, to be serious, I'm told you need to wear a suit of armour if
you're contemplating handling one. Apparently they can leave the
hands and arms with quite a bit to remember them by.

After all that, you may or may not feel like eating it: I'm quite
anxious to try. A rather oily meat, somebody said on Radio 4; but I
bet it's low-cholesterol.

--
Mike.