"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a lethal
blow to the head.

BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones, crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken in the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by drowning
'reasonably swift and humane', something which presumably could only be
answered definitively by the courts. Penalty on conviction is a level 5 fine
or up to 6 months in prison, per animal, so it's not something to be taken
lightly.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as
follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones, crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken in
the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

If I were fataly injured and I would expire in ten seconds I wouldn't worry
to
much, it would be to quick for me to notice, but if my death throws were to
be
a lot longer then, yes, I would be unhappy about that.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as
follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person
mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones, crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one
of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken in
the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

Drowning is not humane, in my opinion, FWIW, but maybe the courts would take
a different view. RSPCA told me they would arrange for the matter to be
investigated, if a complaint were made on their cruelty hotline, and I
suppose that would be the first step.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as
follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person
mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones,
crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one
of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken
in
the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

Drowning is not humane, in my opinion, FWIW, but maybe the courts would
take
a different view. RSPCA told me they would arrange for the matter to be
investigated, if a complaint were made on their cruelty hotline, and I
suppose that would be the first step.

But it is quick.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

And what is their view of killing rats and mice?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One
of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive
that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

That they are all vermin.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One
of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to
drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses
outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive
that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its
position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their
response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

That they are all vermin.


So what? Are you implying that animals which are a nuisance (vermin) are
somehow undeserving of humane treatment?

"BAC" wrote in message
...


I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their
response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

That they are all vermin.

So what? Are you implying that animals which are a nuisance (vermin) are
somehow undeserving of humane treatment?

You have not answered the question, what is their view of killing rats
and mice?

Is poisoning rats causing them to suffer an agonising death over many
hours, humane?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

And what is their view of killing rats and mice?



Sorry to respond for a second time to the same posting, but the query
regarding the killing of rats and mice prompted me to investigate whether
drowning was considered a humane method of dispatching rats caught in a cage
trap.

See

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/rd...cal/TAN_34.pdf

which is the DEFRA Technical Advice Note for dealing with rat infestations.
From which I quote,

"Cage Traps
This method is time consuming, but is a viable
alternative to baiting in situations where resistance is
suspected or when high value crops require protection.
A large number of cage traps are required and prebaiting
is necessary to achieve effective control. Traps
should be located carefully to protect captured animals
from extreme weather conditions or temperatures, and
from flooding.
The benefit of using cage traps is that any non-target
species that are captured can be released unharmed.
Traps should be checked twice a day, in the early
morning and late afternoon. Any captured rats must be
humanely despatched, either by a single blow to the
head or by shooting. Drowning is not a humane
method of dispatch and could result in prosecution
under the Protection of Animals Act 1911."

You will note what it says about drowning as a means of dispatch. If
drowning rats isn't regarded as humane, I doubt very much whether drowning
grey squirrels is, either.

On Mon, 16 May 2005 10:23:49 +0100, "BAC"
wrote:

See

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/rd...cal/TAN_34.pdf

which is the DEFRA Technical Advice Note for dealing with rat infestations.
From which I quote,

"Cage Traps
...
Any captured rats must be
humanely despatched, either by a single blow to the
head or by shooting. Drowning is not a humane
method of dispatch and could result in prosecution
under the Protection of Animals Act 1911."

Curious that they suggest shooting a rat in a cage as a suitable
method of dispatch for rats but advise against shooting in the cage
for squirrels!

JB

"JB" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 May 2005 10:23:49 +0100, "BAC"
wrote:

See

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/rd...cal/TAN_34.pdf

which is the DEFRA Technical Advice Note for dealing with rat
infestations.
From which I quote,

"Cage Traps
...
Any captured rats must be
humanely despatched, either by a single blow to the
head or by shooting. Drowning is not a humane
method of dispatch and could result in prosecution
under the Protection of Animals Act 1911."

Curious that they suggest shooting a rat in a cage as a suitable
method of dispatch for rats but advise against shooting in the cage
for squirrels!


It's two different 'they's. The Forestry Commission (which Alan claims
originally recommended drowning captured squirrels) advice on grey squirrels
which I posted in this thread is currently NOT to shoot trapped animals
(because of perceived risk of injury from a ricochet) and to use no methods
other than bashing over the head or lethal injection, whereas the DEFRA
advice note I also posted, concerning rats, didn't exclude shooting the
trapped ones, although it did exclude drowning which it said brought the
risk of prosecution.

Although the two organisations may have a difference of opinion about the
safety of shooting, they don't seem to disagree regarding the
unacceptability of drowning.