Jim, you mentioned that using a fertilizer such as Osmocote on bonsai can be a bit dangerous and should be used sparingly. Would you please explain how it can be dangerous.

Bill Watkins

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Yes, I too would like to know as one of our pine experts out here includes it heavily in his soil mix.

Kitsune Miko

Bill Watkins wrote:
Jim, you mentioned that using a fertilizer such as Osmocote on bonsai can be a bit dangerous and should be used sparingly. Would you please explain how it can be dangerous.

Bill Watkins

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Yes, I too would like to know as one of our pine experts out
here includes it heavily in his soil mix.

Kitsune Miko

Bill Watkins wrote:
Jim, you mentioned that using a fertilizer such as Osmocote on
bonsai can be a bit dangerous and should be used sparingly. Would
you please explain how it can be dangerous.

================================================== =========

1. There is no electronic timer that tells each fertilizer
pellet (of whatever size) that "now is the time this plant needs
so much of X, Y, or Z." Whether fertilizer pellets dissolve is
conditioned on the temperature and the moisture level in the pot.
Since we keep our pots fairly moist -- moister per unit of soil
than you would normally find in a garden -- there's always a
"dissolve now!" signal being sent. Add to that the heat from a
summer in most of North America (and pots get hotter than yard
soil!) and you are doubling up on the signal. You can end up
with a more-or-less severe build up of phosphorous in your pot,
depending on which pellets open when. And if you add
supplemental fertilizer (as many do) how do you know when your
tree(s) need something and when you've just given them a large
dose of opened pellets?

So you have NO control over when, where, and how much nutrients
reach your plant. This is OK in the wide open space of a garden.
In a pot, it's more serious.

2. If you supplement with other fertilizer over the course of
the growing season, you can be exacerbating this problem. If you
don't, you probably will be ending the season with not enough
fertilizer for over wintering.

3. Since the fertilizer is designed to be randomly triggered, in
a cool year, or in a cooler climate and shorter growing season
than MANY of us have in North America, there could be a sizeable
amount that doesn't dissolve over the course of the growing
season. This means the possibility of a sudden dose of old,
possibly spoiled fertilizer in winter. (I haven't noticed this
problem, but I have heard of and from others who have, but I
never have a cool enough summer to worry about any of it not
dissolving.)

4. Since the technical side of bonsai is about controlling
growth -- think about it: we control our plants in many ways --
why would you allow your fertilization regime be completely
random? Mature trees do NOT need a major influx of nitrogen in
late summer -- which is likely (probable!) with randomly opened
palletized food.

5. It's not a danger, but those little round, yellowish balls of
used and unused fertilizer are unsightly (and also resemble some
kinds of insect eggs).

This stuff is fine for yards (and probably for dime-a-dozen
houseplants in pots) but not ideal for bonsai.

And I know I'm about to be deluged with
"I've-been-doing-it-for-years-and-have-had-no-problems messages."
I'll reply to them now: "Fine. But _I_ won't."

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

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Why, I've been using Osmocote for years, with no problem!

Actually, at the lab, we saw lots of problems with Osmocote. Growers who can mix a fertilizer solution and apply it at the right dose somehow could not manage to put the correct dose of Osmocote; something about those round shiny pellets hypnotized them,
and they'd add too much, then ask us why the foliage was burned.

The main problem is putting it on too early in spring; the fertilizer is released, but not taken up by plants; it gets converted to Ammonium (see previous post) and volatilizes, causing foliage to burn. Again, this is a greenhouse or hoophouse problem, wh
en air circulation is not good.

Nevertheless, I've been using Osmocote for years, with no problem, because I don't put excessive amounts on my plants. But any fertilizer is fine; I'll just point out that since most bonsai are not planted in actual authentic soil, that bonsai fertilizer
should include micronutrients like Mg and Mn, etc., that are normally present in soil, but not present in many nonsoil mixes.

Nina

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I have lost several plants that I can attribute almost certainly to
fertiser burn as the temperatures warmed up in spring. I believe that
the shells deteriorate and release a flood of less controlled fertiliser
in their second season. I stopped using it and the problem has not
recurred.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales



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At 10:48 AM 5/11/04 -0400, Jim Lewis wrote:
Yes, I too would like to know as one of our pine experts out
here includes it heavily in his soil mix.

Kitsune Miko

Bill Watkins wrote:
Jim, you mentioned that using a fertilizer such as Osmocote on
bonsai can be a bit dangerous and should be used sparingly. Would
you please explain how it can be dangerous.

================================================= ==========

1. There is no electronic timer that tells each fertilizer
pellet (of whatever size) that "now is the time this plant needs
so much of X, Y, or Z." .....

Deleted lots of good comments and warnings from Jim Lewis.

Jim's warnings should be heeded, but like any chemical substance, Osmocote
has an appropriate time and place. When used carefully and conscientiously
it can be a valuable tool. I use it regularly in my soil mix
(incorporated). I don't use it as an add on fertilizer for regular
fertilization. For regular maintenance I use either soluble fertilizers or
periodic solid 15-15-15 for larger plants in containers (not bonsai).
Bonsai get soluble only for maintenance but Osmocote incorporated into the
mix, although I have used Osmocote in the past on my bonsai without
problems (dibbled into corners).

I have grown hundreds of thousands of plants in soil mix incorporating
Osmcote. As far as I can determine, I have had only one problem, and this
relates to one of Nina's warnings. I get bareroot black pine seedlings in
winter to use as understock. These are usually two or three year old field
grown Pinus thunbergii. I root prune them and pot them up in small pots
suitable for grafting pots (it varies). Since my new location is
considerably colder than the old nursery, I put these in an unheated
greenhouse that stays just above freezing, but can heat up considerably
during the day. Apparently, the daytime heating did in fact release too
much nitrogen since a significant number of these failed, athough it wasn't
really disasterous, less than 1/3 died. The others that survived turned
into monsters with all that nitrogen fueling really rapid growth. As far as
I know, that is the only case of damage. Last winter, I overwintered them
outside with only sprinkler and shade cloth protection and they are just fine.

I don't use a heavy rate. I incorporate at the low to medium rate advised
on the bag (this is a commerical 13-13-13, 9 month formula not usually
available on the market. It only comes in 50 lb bags). I don't really feel
good about planting anything in soil that doesn't have some fertilizer in
it, and this solves that problem. I know that if I don't get around to a
regular feeding, the young or newly transplanted plants are just fine. In
summer, I start soluble feeding immediately after transplanting into this
mix and there is no apparent problem.

I meant to post a revealing photo (no, not that kind of revealing) some
time ago of a discovery I made. I don't even know what I did with the
picture file now. It will show up sooner or later. A couple years ago, in
late spring, I did an emergency light root prune and transplant of some
Sageretia thea. They were in 4 inch pots; I root pruned, top pruned, and
put them back into the 4 inch pots with only a small amount of fresh soil.
I didn't think the small amount of fresh soil would contain enough Osmocote
to give them the proper boost, so I dibbled about a teaspoon into the
corners of the pots. A year later, I happened to pull one out of the pot
and there was an impenetrable mass of white roots around and though that
ball of Osmocote pellets. It would have made a great commercial. The rest
of the pot had normal roots, but the one quarter of the pot with the
Osmocote had the roots that ate Chicago. So much for not fertilizing newly
repotted plants.




Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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In a message dated 5/14/2004 5:57:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:
At 10:48 AM 5/11/04 -0400, Jim Lewis wrote:
Yes, I too would like to know as one of our pine experts out
here includes it heavily in his soil mix.

Kitsune Miko

Bill Watkins wrote:
Jim, you mentioned that using a fertilizer such as Osmocote on
bonsai can be a bit dangerous and should be used sparingly. Would
you please explain how it can be dangerous.
Osmocote is, in my opinion, an excellent solution for commercial application
in a nursery environment. It is a generally a slow-release fertilizer, but it
is not a controlled release--once you add it into the soil, it is difficult
to extract and its release cannot be controlled.

We all use different products to fertilize our trees. The one universal
element is the need to determine the desired outcome for the particular specimen
and to CONTROL the feeding.

In the world of fertilizer options, Osmocote is on the bottom of my list.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob

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We all use different products to fertilize our trees. The one
universal
element is the need to determine the desired outcome for the
particular specimen
and to CONTROL the feeding.

In the world of fertilizer options, Osmocote is on the bottom
of my list.

I agree wholeheartedly. Bonsaiests MUST be control freaks or our
trees will get away from us.

We control where branches grow. We control how much room the
roots will have. We control whether and how much and how often
they bloom, we control everything about them.

One of the most important things, and the one we can most easily
control is WHEN we give nutrient to the trees and HOW MUCH we
give. This is impossible with Osmocoat and fertilizers of that
ilk.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

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There is control in bonsai, but nothing is static. I used to use Osmacote regularly out here in California, and my plants did well, but then there was a move to organic fertilizers like rape seed cake. I tried that because it was fasionable at the time,
but my fertilizer cakes developed maggots, something I cannot tolorate. I still get those "she just doesn't get it" looks when I refuse to go with the croud, but I have been experimenting with a variety of other organic and inoraganic fertilizers. I now
do prefer short lived fertilizers one can flush through soil rather than the long lasting ones.

One I have used in the past and have started re-using is something called "Grow Power." It is a dry application of what they call a humus based product, 5-3-1 with minerals and hints at having beneficial bacteria from the composting of the humus. It says
you can mix it into soil. I have not tried that yet. What I use in my soil mix is Lilly Miller "Vitastart" 2-4-2 an organic based transplant fertilizer.

A couple of times during spring and early summer, I may give everything a dose of Miracid or fish emulsion based produce, if I want to pep things up.

When I used Osmacote, it was one "with minors". I stopped using this because the product was discontinued.

I had a neighbor that was in the Stanford microbiology depeartment. He is still with Stanford, but no longer my neighbor. One of his experiments was to feed plant food only to some house plants and minerals only to other house plants. The unfertilized,
mineralized plants did better than the ones that were fed only fertilizer. So I have always looked for ways to add minerals to my bonsai. This is not always easy for the non-commercial grower. I like to find fertilizer mixes where the minerals are incl
uded.

Kitsune Miko

Jim Lewis wrote:
We all use different products to fertilize our trees. The one
universal
element is the need to determine the desired outcome for the
particular specimen
and to CONTROL the feeding.

In the world of fertilizer options, Osmocote is on the bottom
of my list.

I agree wholeheartedly. Bonsaiests MUST be control freaks or our
trees will get away from us.

We control where branches grow. We control how much room the
roots will have. We control whether and how much and how often
they bloom, we control everything about them.

One of the most important things, and the one we can most easily
control is WHEN we give nutrient to the trees and HOW MUCH we
give. This is impossible with Osmocoat and fertilizers of that
ilk.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

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Life is a romantic business. It is painting a picture, not doing a sum -- but you have to make the romance, and it will come to the question how much fire you have in your belly.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

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In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:04:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes:

There is control in bonsai, but nothing is static. I used to use Osmacote regularly out here in California, and my plants did well, but then there was a move to organic fertilizers like rape seed cake. I tried that because it was fasionable at the time
, but my fertilizer cakes developed maggots, something I cannot tolorate. I still get those "she just doesn't get it" looks when I refuse to go with the croud, but I have been experimenting with a variety of other organic and inoraganic fertilizers. I
now do prefer short lived fertilizers one can flush through soil rather than the long lasting ones.

Kitsune:

Cakes are more essential when used Akadama, which does not do a good job at retaining and releasing chemical fertilizers. As for the maggots, adding a capful of Sevin to a large mix of fertilizer cakes eliminates the maggot problem.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob

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