Except the buckthorn has black berries, and mine are a bright blue.

"Karen" wrote in message
om...
(Pat Kiewicz) wrote in message
...
Neil said:

No, the leaves are more obviously serated on the edges, and the berries
are
a bright blue.

Possibly common buckthorn ( Rhamnus cathartica)?

http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/rhca1.htm
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/esadocs/franalnu.html

I think you're right. It's buckthorn. My contractor was wrong.

Ok, here's a closeup

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries2.jpg

Neil

"animaux" wrote in message
...
I wasn't able to see those details on a non-close up shot. When trying to
have
things identified, it's always best to take photos of each segment,
foliage,
flowers and berries or fruits. Large photos of the plant, out of
focus...well,
not easy to identify.

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:34:19 -0400, "Neil" opined:

No, the leaves are more obviously serated on the edges, and the berries
are
a bright blue.

"animaux" wrote in message
.. .

Looks like you may have a rare specimen. Rusty blackhaw viburnum.
Have
it
identified by a botanical garden center. They are very hard to come by
in
the
trade. I have been trying to get cuttings for years.

Take a look here to see if it matches your shrub/tree.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...vrufidulum.htm

Victoria

Send me your address and i'll mail you some berries.

"Allview" wrote in message
...
Whatever those trees are I wouldn't mind having some. I guessed some type
of
viburnum when I saw the picture but I am far from being an expert. It
would be
nice to have late winter berries for the birds.

Marilyn in Ohio

Can I have some too?

Do you remember what the flowers looked like?

Its definitley a viburnum, probably Viburnum lentago. Definitley not a
buckthorn because the berries are way too blue.

Toad

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:252942

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:30:10 -0400, "Neil"
wrote:

There's a picture at

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries.jpg

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:56:41 -0400, "Neil"
wrote:

Ok, here's a closeup

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries2.jpg

On 13 Oct 2003 22:29:13 GMT, (Marley1372)
wrote:

Its definitley a viburnum, probably Viburnum lentago. Definitley not a
buckthorn because the berries are way too blue.


Hi Toad,

Try comparing what you suggested (viburnum lentago) to this
link:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...s/vlentago.htm

It doesn't look the same to me...

The best I've been able to come up with is Ovalleaf
Huckleberry or Bilbery (vaccinium ovalifolium). See:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...valifolium.htm

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/v/vaoval.htm

I suspect that it is some type of vaccinium. From what I
could find out most of the blueberries grown as commercial
crops came from the vaccinium varieties.

Looking inside the drupe for seeds and counting them (if
there are any) could be helpful in identifying. How tall
this speciman is and diameter of the trunk would be useful
too. It is hard to tell from the images.

Another possibility (already suggested?) are the
Huckleberry's from gaylussacia. Possibly gaylussacia
baccata. The leaves look to be too big for this though. See:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...aylussacia.htm

http://www.bbg.org/sci/nymf/encyclop...i/gay0010b.htm

The oval leaf shape in the images that Neil provided and the
apparent size (too big for most suggestions?) ruins many
suggested identities...

I have quite a few good shrub/tree books and this doesn't
seem to be in any of them. Maybe Neil can provide a little
history/background. Was this tree planted or did it occur
naturally. Any guess on how old it might be? That could be
useful in eliminating named species of recent origin. I
haven't given up, but I have pretty much exhausted my
current resources...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:30:10 -0400, "Neil"
wrote:

There's a picture at

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries.jpg

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:56:41 -0400, "Neil"
wrote:

Ok, here's a closeup

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries2.jpg

On 13 Oct 2003 22:29:13 GMT, (Marley1372)
wrote:

Its definitley a viburnum, probably Viburnum lentago. Definitley not a
buckthorn because the berries are way too blue.


Hi Toad,

Try comparing what you suggested (viburnum lentago) to this
link:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...s/vlentago.htm

It doesn't look the same to me...

The best I've been able to come up with is Ovalleaf
Huckleberry or Bilbery (vaccinium ovalifolium). See:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...valifolium.htm

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/v/vaoval.htm

I suspect that it is some type of vaccinium. From what I
could find out most of the blueberries grown as commercial
crops came from the vaccinium varieties.

Looking inside the drupe for seeds and counting them (if
there are any) could be helpful in identifying. How tall
this speciman is and diameter of the trunk would be useful
too. It is hard to tell from the images.

Another possibility (already suggested?) are the
Huckleberry's from gaylussacia. Possibly gaylussacia
baccata. The leaves look to be too big for this though. See:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...aylussacia.htm

http://www.bbg.org/sci/nymf/encyclop...i/gay0010b.htm

The oval leaf shape in the images that Neil provided and the
apparent size (too big for most suggestions?) ruins many
suggested identities...

I have quite a few good shrub/tree books and this doesn't
seem to be in any of them. Maybe Neil can provide a little
history/background. Was this tree planted or did it occur
naturally. Any guess on how old it might be? That could be
useful in eliminating named species of recent origin. I
haven't given up, but I have pretty much exhausted my
current resources...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Funny this has become an obsession with me as well. The closest I could
come up with was viburnum or vaccinium but the although the berries are the
right color - the calyx are not right and the stem colors are not right. Are
the berries very fleshy like a type of service berry? They almost look more
crabapple like than berry like or possible wild cherry like but blue??
I can't google any more. I as well have many North American native plant
books, edible plant books and shrub books that I cannot find these in - so
is it really wild in NA??
Be nice to see someone solve this mystery!!
Have you tried bringing it in to a local nursery or College. There must be a
well versed horticulturalist in the area.

The Vibrunum Lengato seems to be the closest match so far, but the
description
of the berries doesn't seem quite right. It talks about blue-black berries,
and these
are a bright blue, definitely not approaching black.

I have no idea about the trees history. I bought the property a year ago,
and they
were already here. There are about three or four of them together in the
area in sort
of a clump.

The general appearance is that of a small (8') tree a bit spindly with sort
of crooked
angular branches.

I've been following everyone's suggestions here, and this really seems to be
a stumper. In
every case the suggested plant has either the wrong leaf shape, or wrong
berry color.

I'm wondering, however, if the tree's environment is effecting it's normal
appearance somewhat.
It is in a very shady area that gets little sun. Probably not much more than
a couple of hours of indirect
sun a day. Maybe the berries would be black if the tree got more sun. Dunno.

I sent an e-mail to the Connecticut horticultural society, but they have yet
to respond.

I'l go do some measurements today, and disect a berry or two and post my
results.

Neil


"Tina Gibson" wrote in message
news:xtcjb.104221$pl3.55041@pd7tw3no...

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:30:10 -0400, "Neil"
wrote:

There's a picture at

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries.jpg

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:56:41 -0400, "Neil"
wrote:

Ok, here's a closeup

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries2.jpg

On 13 Oct 2003 22:29:13 GMT, (Marley1372)
wrote:

Its definitley a viburnum, probably Viburnum lentago. Definitley not a
buckthorn because the berries are way too blue.


Hi Toad,

Try comparing what you suggested (viburnum lentago) to this
link:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...s/vlentago.htm

It doesn't look the same to me...

The best I've been able to come up with is Ovalleaf
Huckleberry or Bilbery (vaccinium ovalifolium). See:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...valifolium.htm

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/v/vaoval.htm

I suspect that it is some type of vaccinium. From what I
could find out most of the blueberries grown as commercial
crops came from the vaccinium varieties.

Looking inside the drupe for seeds and counting them (if
there are any) could be helpful in identifying. How tall
this speciman is and diameter of the trunk would be useful
too. It is hard to tell from the images.

Another possibility (already suggested?) are the
Huckleberry's from gaylussacia. Possibly gaylussacia
baccata. The leaves look to be too big for this though. See:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrol...aylussacia.htm

http://www.bbg.org/sci/nymf/encyclop...i/gay0010b.htm

The oval leaf shape in the images that Neil provided and the
apparent size (too big for most suggestions?) ruins many
suggested identities...

I have quite a few good shrub/tree books and this doesn't
seem to be in any of them. Maybe Neil can provide a little
history/background. Was this tree planted or did it occur
naturally. Any guess on how old it might be? That could be
useful in eliminating named species of recent origin. I
haven't given up, but I have pretty much exhausted my
current resources...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Funny this has become an obsession with me as well. The closest I could
come up with was viburnum or vaccinium but the although the berries are
the
right color - the calyx are not right and the stem colors are not right.
Are
the berries very fleshy like a type of service berry? They almost look
more
crabapple like than berry like or possible wild cherry like but blue??
I can't google any more. I as well have many North American native plant
books, edible plant books and shrub books that I cannot find these in - so
is it really wild in NA??
Be nice to see someone solve this mystery!!
Have you tried bringing it in to a local nursery or College. There must be
a
well versed horticulturalist in the area.

I've been following along because I remember searching for the name of
this shrub years ago. [long before I had internet access] My feeble
mind can't remember if I was ever successful, or where exactly I saw
this shrub.

It was definitely in NY-- around Albany/Schenectady. I thought it
was in the woods on my current property, but a quick look through
yesterday didn't reveal any more.

"Neil" wrote:

The Vibrunum Lengato seems to be the closest match so far, but the
description
of the berries doesn't seem quite right. It talks about blue-black berries,
and these
are a bright blue, definitely not approaching black.

Your second picture shows the color well--- if anything it downplays
the metallic/porcelain-like blue. The color is so strikingly
different it seems like anyone who has ever seen one will remember it.

I think both of the species that Leon posted [Vaccinium & Viburnums]
had a 'blush' or 'bloom' on the berry/drupe. These do not-- they are
bright & shiny.

Was it this berry or another that I popped open to find 4 seeds
arranged like orange sections to form a globe? If you pop one, also
note the color of the juice & flesh.


I have no idea about the trees history. I bought the property a year ago,
and they
were already here. There are about three or four of them together in the
area in sort
of a clump.

The general appearance is that of a small (8') tree a bit spindly with sort
of crooked
angular branches.

If my memory serves, I would call them an understory plant with a
habit somewhere between 'gracefully sweeping' and 'leggy'.


I've been following everyone's suggestions here, and this really seems to be
a stumper. In
every case the suggested plant has either the wrong leaf shape, or wrong
berry color.

I'm wondering, however, if the tree's environment is effecting it's normal
appearance somewhat.
It is in a very shady area that gets little sun. Probably not much more than
a couple of hours of indirect
sun a day. Maybe the berries would be black if the tree got more sun. Dunno.

I don't think so-- I'm still looking for the ones I saw around here,
but I'm pretty sure the ones I saw were all in the shade.


I sent an e-mail to the Connecticut horticultural society, but they have yet
to respond.

I'l go do some measurements today, and disect a berry or two and post my
results.

While you're out there, also note;
The color / odor of the bark & the layer under the bark.
The arrangement of the berries [cluster of 2 or 3 or single]
Arrangement of leaves/leaflets - how many, are the opposite or
alternate, etc.
What color are the leaves turning to? [I went out looking for this
bush yesterday & noted that a lot of our shrubs have lost their leaves
already]

Reposting Neil's links for anyone tuning in late;
General
http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries.jpg
Closeup
http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/blueberries2.jpg

Jim

Hi Neil,

I may have found it. Sapphire Berry or Asiatic Sweetleaf
(symplocos paniculata). See the following links and see what
you think.

http://www.keystonetree.com/saphire.jpg

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/s/sypani.htm

http://ridgwaydb.mobot.org/kemperweb....asp?code=T710

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/s/sympan/sympan1.html

It is an import from China and Japan. Makes it hard to find
in our native books

You can do your own Google search using the latin name if
you want to explore this further. I didn't find very many
images of it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The picture in the first link is dead on.
Also the description in the uconn site is very accurate.

The berries, BTW, are not really fleshy. I cut one open and it has a hard
seed
inside.

Anyhow, here are more pictures of mine for comparison.

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/berriescut.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/leavesbottom.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/leavestop.jpg

Thanks you everyone for helping me with this mystery.

Neil


"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
Hi Neil,

I may have found it. Sapphire Berry or Asiatic Sweetleaf
(symplocos paniculata). See the following links and see what
you think.

http://www.keystonetree.com/saphire.jpg

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/s/sypani.htm

http://ridgwaydb.mobot.org/kemperweb....asp?code=T710

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/s/sympan/sympan1.html

It is an import from China and Japan. Makes it hard to find
in our native books

You can do your own Google search using the latin name if
you want to explore this further. I didn't find very many
images of it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Neil" wrote in message ...
THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The picture in the first link is dead on.
Also the description in the uconn site is very accurate.

The berries, BTW, are not really fleshy. I cut one open and it has a hard
seed
inside.

Anyhow, here are more pictures of mine for comparison.

http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/berriescut.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/leavesbottom.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~nradisch/leavestop.jpg

Thanks you everyone for helping me with this mystery.

Neil


"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
Hi Neil,

I may have found it. Sapphire Berry or Asiatic Sweetleaf
(symplocos paniculata). See the following links and see what
you think.

http://www.keystonetree.com/saphire.jpg

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/s/sypani.htm

http://ridgwaydb.mobot.org/kemperweb....asp?code=T710

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/s/sympan/sympan1.html

It is an import from China and Japan. Makes it hard to find
in our native books

You can do your own Google search using the latin name if
you want to explore this further. I didn't find very many
images of it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email



Way to go Leon!! Now we all can sleep!!
Neil if you can send seeds - I would love some. just email me if you can.

Thanks Leon!

Leon Fisk wrote:

Hi Neil,

I may have found it. Sapphire Berry or Asiatic Sweetleaf
(symplocos paniculata). See the following links and see what
you think.

http://www.keystonetree.com/saphire.jpg

http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/s/sypani.htm

http://ridgwaydb.mobot.org/kemperweb....asp?code=T710

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/s/sympan/sympan1.html


Well, we're all in agreement that this is the one. The Latin name
seems vaguely familiar, so maybe I did stumble on an ID years ago.
[but the common names don't-- so maybe I didn't.]

I looked in Wyman's Encyclopedia & they mention that it has fragrant
white flowers for a short time in the spring-- and that it loses the
berries rather quickly once they are ripe. But they also say that the
berries are "of a color not seen in the fruit of any other hardy woody
plant." So they make up in uniqueness what they lack in longevity.

For those who have asked for seeds,Wyman's says they can be
propagated, but that the seeds germinate erratically. They recommend
stratifying the seeds at 40degees F for 3 months before sowing.

They also say softwood cuttings will root.
-snip-

I second Neil's Thanks-
Jim