Hello the

Brand new to this group and I can see I'm going to learn alot! I'm not a
professional--just a landowner trying to get smart and manage 275 acres for
the long-haul. Location is SW Wisconsin (Hillsboro). Land was pastured
heavily till 30 years ago and no abuse since--but no management either. So
now I find an excellent crop of Ironwood......uh, I mean Ostrya
Virginiana....so I guess I could call it Hornbeam, too :-) . We do have
some Carpinus Caroliniana (musclewood) too, but not that big of a problem.
(I think I'll keep it for "species diversity" :-) ).

I've spent many days mechanically cutting Ostrya and will still probably do
much more of that. However, I dropped hundreds of $ on 2.5 gallons each of
Garlon 3A and Garlon 4. I will use little spray bottles of the Garlon 3A
mixed w/ water to spray the cut-stumps of Ostrya when I do that work.
However, right now I'm working my way through the Garlon 4 and this leads to
my question......

I've searched the web and found references to 2% (some), 5% (most), and up
to 25% mixes (a few) of Garlon 4 in diesel fuel for general basal bark
spraying. At about a dollar an ounce, I've gone with the 5% mix of Garlon 4
in diesel fuel. At one week, the trees are showing no stress. But I'm not
really that impatient :-). What are your thoughts on stiffness of mix
versus successful kill of Ostrya? Will I probably see good effect in a
month or two? Any other thoughts of which this newbie should be aware?

Once the 2.5 gallons are gone, I will probably return to mechanical removal.
This land was "high graded" for MANY years and has lots of mature and
over-mature trees of poor or deformed form. Composition is mostly Maple and
Oak with lots of Shagbark and Bitternut Hickory, and Lots of White Ash. All
the Butternut is almost gone do to that blight that effects them.

Anyways, I look forward to your thoughts. If you reply to me directly, cut
the "name" (before the @) of my email address in half.

--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

He's upstairs helping Porcelain make the bed. --FST

Don't bother with pesticides. Call your local forester and set up a restoration
sale.
If you were nearby me on my side of the lake, I know an operator that could chip
that
crap up and pay 50 cents/ton as stumpage, avoiding all costs that you are now
incurring.
Join the Wisconsin forest owners association or whatever the equivalent is
there, and/or
talk to a county forester. Pesticides are not the right way to go if you're
trying to weed out
ironwood. If you have blue beech, you're probably sitting on top of a clay
band. That tree
likes the wet. I have some of both on my own land, and a TON of aspen. In
fact, if you have
any aspen, encourage their growth. They grow fast and shelter hardwood
regeneration just
perfectly. You may have a deer problem which would increase the ironwood as
well. I've got
some nice sugar maple, red maple, red oak and ash coming up on my land.

Keep in mind that this is long, long, term management and if you're on a
severely high-graded
site, you've got at least 20 years before you're going to be able to even see
merchantable,
valuable species on your land (it takes 22yrs. for 4" dbh sugar maple from seed
up here in central
MI). Probably 60 years before you have a sale, and it will just be commercial.

This is of course the obvious problem with high-grading. If it wasn't
liquidated in the past, it could have
been harvested last year and you'd only have 16 more years to see a huge lump
sum payment of those
years' "accumulated interest", and retain (once again the best wood) - without
the problems of a high amount
of ironwood regen.

Just out of curiosity, how large are those ironwood?

I'm not even going to make an attempt to e-mail you, because I don't understand
your e-mail instructions.
Feel free to e-mail me however regarding this.

Warm regards,
Geoff Kegerreis
www.timberlineforestry.com

LeRoy, MI

Bruce Richardson wrote:

Hello the

Brand new to this group and I can see I'm going to learn alot! I'm not a
professional--just a landowner trying to get smart and manage 275 acres for
the long-haul. Location is SW Wisconsin (Hillsboro). Land was pastured
heavily till 30 years ago and no abuse since--but no management either. So
now I find an excellent crop of Ironwood......uh, I mean Ostrya
Virginiana....so I guess I could call it Hornbeam, too :-) . We do have
some Carpinus Caroliniana (musclewood) too, but not that big of a problem.
(I think I'll keep it for "species diversity" :-) ).

I've spent many days mechanically cutting Ostrya and will still probably do
much more of that. However, I dropped hundreds of $ on 2.5 gallons each of
Garlon 3A and Garlon 4. I will use little spray bottles of the Garlon 3A
mixed w/ water to spray the cut-stumps of Ostrya when I do that work.
However, right now I'm working my way through the Garlon 4 and this leads to
my question......

I've searched the web and found references to 2% (some), 5% (most), and up
to 25% mixes (a few) of Garlon 4 in diesel fuel for general basal bark
spraying. At about a dollar an ounce, I've gone with the 5% mix of Garlon 4
in diesel fuel. At one week, the trees are showing no stress. But I'm not
really that impatient :-). What are your thoughts on stiffness of mix
versus successful kill of Ostrya? Will I probably see good effect in a
month or two? Any other thoughts of which this newbie should be aware?

Once the 2.5 gallons are gone, I will probably return to mechanical removal.
This land was "high graded" for MANY years and has lots of mature and
over-mature trees of poor or deformed form. Composition is mostly Maple and
Oak with lots of Shagbark and Bitternut Hickory, and Lots of White Ash. All
the Butternut is almost gone do to that blight that effects them.

Anyways, I look forward to your thoughts. If you reply to me directly, cut
the "name" (before the @) of my email address in half.

--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

He's upstairs helping Porcelain make the bed. --FST

Hi Geoff:

In a way, you don't answer my question. But you do share your thoughts
which is also what I asked for.

Ironwood varies from 1" to 8" with most 3"-4". I'm talkin' I have a LOT of
this in the mid-story. Basal area averages 9.5 sq/ft per acre. I mentioned
this to our county extension forester and he says "we don't include trees 4"
or smaller in our point samples". Well I did when I cruised the property
and I think statistics and point sampling work and represent what is there.

When you say "chip up" do you mean deformed over-mature maples or ironwood?

I don't expect any return from the present. I do take the long view and
whoever buys this land or inherits it from me will get the value. I just
like being outside and doing the right thing for the long-haul.

Speaking of deer-yes, they are a problem. There are too many deer in
Wisconsin due to the management techniques over the past 40 years. The DNR
wants license money from all the Illinois hunters. So now we have CWD.
These excessive deer make it tough on maple and oak seedlings in shady or
sunny areas respectively.

But to anyone else reading, I'd sure love to learn their thoughts on my
question: "What are your thoughts on stiffness of Garlon4 mix
versus successful kill of Ostrya? Will I probably see good effect in a
month or two?"
--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

The Sweet Morning Fog --Kate Bush

Ironwood varies from 1" to 8" with most 3"-4". I'm talkin' I have a LOT of
this in the mid-story. Basal area averages 9.5 sq/ft per acre.

Just a curiousity; are you a forester or an engineer, or other, what is it you
do (or did?) for a living? - reason that I ask is that you state "9.5 ft2 ",
which is an unusual term for a forester to use, generally. I would, however
expect an engineer to use this terminology.

I would expect a forester to talk about trees/acre when considering
unmerchantable poles, and by the way, 10 square feet is not unusual for ironwood
in a stand in the Lake states. High, but not unusual, particularly if it has
been high-graded. That stuff loves to occupy big canopy gaps if it has the
chance, which is why we spec. (put a specification in a timber sale contract) it
out down to 2" on our sales around here. If we don't want to spec. it out, then
we always mark the crap heavily unless there is a straggler or two in the middle
of an area that will not be opened up too much, or it's in a prime wildlife food
area (like a dry, south facing slope mixed in with red oaks, beech, etc.).
There is some benefit to leaving small amounts of ironwood for wildlife, as it
has been documented as a secondary mast staple (especially for ruffed grouse -
1/2-2% of diet). It all depends on the experience at hand.

I mentioned
this to our county extension forester and he says "we don't include trees 4"
or smaller in our point samples".

Probably because they're using a 10 factor prism, which doesn't give accurate
values of relative density when you get 4" or below (under figures the density
of small poles) in most
cases.

Well I did when I cruised the property
and I think statistics and point sampling work and represent what is there.

Maybe, but there are some tricky mathematical functions of point sampling, and
it takes a lot of experience to come to an understanding of what works best for
a specific situation. One thing that must be considered right away is the
variation of a woods - that of which often has uneven distributions. Theory and
practice are two wholly different matters concerning sampling techniques of
trees.

When you say "chip up" do you mean deformed over-mature maples or ironwood?

Depending how crappy the maples are and what the rest of the understory looks
like, maybe I'd
get both chipped up to a pulp mill or energy plant or other chip buyer. It
depends on the stand condition,
structure, and overall make-up of the stand, but in general, take out your
crappiest formed trees first, regardless of species or merchantability. Any
other method will leave you in the same prediciment.

I don't expect any return from the present. I do take the long view and
whoever buys this land or inherits it from me will get the value. I just
like being outside and doing the right thing for the long-haul.

Cool. Me too. It's all I do.

Speaking of deer-yes, they are a problem. There are too many deer in
Wisconsin due to the management techniques over the past 40 years. The DNR
wants license money from all the Illinois hunters. So now we have CWD.
These excessive deer make it tough on maple and oak seedlings in shady or
sunny areas respectively.

Yeah buddy. We have the same problem to differing extents all over the state of
MI.
The only difference is that we get primarily the Ohio folks up here (and many
from IN,
and lower MI). Oh, and no reported CWD yet - the UP is looking out for that one
big time!

But to anyone else reading, I'd sure love to learn their thoughts on my
question: "What are your thoughts on stiffness of Garlon4 mix
versus successful kill of Ostrya? Will I probably see good effect in a
month or two?"

Here's how I answer that question: Forget about using herbicides. They're a
waste
of money and time in N. hardwood stands, and won't do anything but screw up the
possibilities of getting quality regen in there for about 6 months. I don't use
them on
any of the jobs I do, and try my best to discourage anyone from using them,
because
100% of the time there are better ways to manage forests than applying
chemicals.

Unfortunately, some people continue to be hard-headed and because of not taking
sound advice from someone who does have the understanding, end up screwing
things
up and ruining their woods. Ahh... to err is to be human... Don't confuse
excitement
and enthusiasm for expertise. This is not rocket science - it's much more
complex.
But hey, it only takes 2 decades to get a pole sugar maple, so what's 6 months
of frusturation
when compared to that?

Now, if they just had a chemical that could selectively do away with CWD and all
deer that munch
sugar maple and red oak seedlings, I would be giving different advice!

warm regards,

Geoff Kegerreis
State of Michigan registered + practicing forester (e.g., I AM a professional)
Michigan

Geoff Kegerreis wrote:




Ironwood varies from 1" to 8" with most 3"-4". I'm talkin' I have a
LOT of
this in the mid-story. Basal area averages 9.5 sq/ft per acre.

Just a curiousity; are you a forester or an engineer, or other, what is
it you do (or did?) for a living? - reason that I ask is that you state
"9.5 ft^2 ", which is an unusual term for a forester to use, generally.
I would, however expect an engineer to use this terminology.




He may have simply measured diameters on a fixed plot basis. No prism
needed.

My point exactly, wouldn't you use trees/acre specs for regeneration?
I know I would.

GK

mike hagen wrote:

Geoff Kegerreis wrote:




Ironwood varies from 1" to 8" with most 3"-4". I'm talkin' I have a
LOT of
this in the mid-story. Basal area averages 9.5 sq/ft per acre.

Just a curiousity; are you a forester or an engineer, or other, what is
it you do (or did?) for a living? - reason that I ask is that you state
"9.5 ft^2 ", which is an unusual term for a forester to use, generally.
I would, however expect an engineer to use this terminology.




He may have simply measured diameters on a fixed plot basis. No prism
needed.

I'd like to hear how good this stuff is also especially if you have to
mix it with diesel to make it work. I mean diesel will kill alot of
stuff on its own and its pretty cheap. mayyde I should start mixing my
$120 a quart arsenal with diesel or bleach and it will kill some
stuff. Why do you call it herbizide when you are mixing it with
diesel? That sounds stupid to me

On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:33:22 -0500, "Bruce Richardson"
wrote:

Hello the

Brand new to this group and I can see I'm going to learn alot! I'm not a
professional--just a landowner trying to get smart and manage 275 acres for
the long-haul. Location is SW Wisconsin (Hillsboro). Land was pastured
heavily till 30 years ago and no abuse since--but no management either. So
now I find an excellent crop of Ironwood......uh, I mean Ostrya
Virginiana....so I guess I could call it Hornbeam, too :-) . We do have
some Carpinus Caroliniana (musclewood) too, but not that big of a problem.
(I think I'll keep it for "species diversity" :-) ).

I've spent many days mechanically cutting Ostrya and will still probably do
much more of that. However, I dropped hundreds of $ on 2.5 gallons each of
Garlon 3A and Garlon 4. I will use little spray bottles of the Garlon 3A
mixed w/ water to spray the cut-stumps of Ostrya when I do that work.
However, right now I'm working my way through the Garlon 4 and this leads to
my question......

I've searched the web and found references to 2% (some), 5% (most), and up
to 25% mixes (a few) of Garlon 4 in diesel fuel for general basal bark
spraying. At about a dollar an ounce, I've gone with the 5% mix of Garlon 4
in diesel fuel. At one week, the trees are showing no stress. But I'm not
really that impatient :-). What are your thoughts on stiffness of mix
versus successful kill of Ostrya? Will I probably see good effect in a
month or two? Any other thoughts of which this newbie should be aware?

Once the 2.5 gallons are gone, I will probably return to mechanical removal.
This land was "high graded" for MANY years and has lots of mature and
over-mature trees of poor or deformed form. Composition is mostly Maple and
Oak with lots of Shagbark and Bitternut Hickory, and Lots of White Ash. All
the Butternut is almost gone do to that blight that effects them.

Anyways, I look forward to your thoughts. If you reply to me directly, cut
the "name" (before the @) of my email address in half.

--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

He's upstairs helping Porcelain make the bed. --FST

Why do you call it herbizide when you are mixing it with
diesel? That sounds stupid to me.

There's another insult--Thanks!
Uhhhhh, cause the directions say to? It comes as a concentrate and
apparently diesel fuel as an oily substance penetrates the bark and migrates
better around the bark in case one didn't actually spray all 360degrees.

What should I call it?

--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn Pro." -- HST

"I don't get it" #1: I picked the wrong newsgroup to get an answer to my
question. Eight days and noone could/would give an answer. You'd rather
debate how I didn't count the Ironwood in the manner you would.


--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

X Carpe Bozo: Seize the Bozo!

it wasnt meant as an insult, someone else xplained it to me. I just
have limited knowledge and was asking. IT makes sense if you dont care
about killing good stuff. I'll juts have to learn as I go
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:50:38 -0500, "Bruce Richardson"
wrote:

Why do you call it herbizide when you are mixing it with
diesel? That sounds stupid to me.

There's another insult--Thanks!
Uhhhhh, cause the directions say to? It comes as a concentrate and
apparently diesel fuel as an oily substance penetrates the bark and migrates
better around the bark in case one didn't actually spray all 360degrees.

What should I call it?

--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn Pro." -- HST

Bruce Richardson wrote:
"I don't get it" #1: I picked the wrong newsgroup to get an answer to my
question. Eight days and noone could/would give an answer. You'd rather
debate how I didn't count the Ironwood in the manner you would.


Hmmm. I don't have time for a flame war, though some here regard it as
sport. People here respond if they have an interest in the subject,
some particular nugget they'd like to share or at least some humor.
Treating Ironwood with herbicides seems to be something nobody has any
special knowledge of.

In my part of the country, we'd probably use mechanical site prep and a
burn for a problem like yours. Depends.

Take geoff's early advice and talk to a local forester or your County
extension agent. We'd say that to anyone with an actual field problem.
He (or she) might know the exact label restrictions on Garlon. For the
amount you'd be using I'm pretty sure you'd be working with state
pesticide rules and will probably need a licensed applicator. And yes
diesel is commonly used as a bark penetrant and dilutant for herbicides.
It's cheap and has some toxicity itself.

Mike H.

Ok, I'll apologize for getting snippy to both you (John P) and to Geoff. I
just got frustrated. I thought this newsgroup probably contained the
universe of those who could/would answer my question. As Mike Hagen points
out, it doesn't.

I've already been in contact with my County Extension Forester and "he
didn't know". He generally steered away from Garlon 3 and 4 on account of
cost but was thought they'd be effective.

Geoff replied privately with more detail why not to use herbicides. I will
consider his comments.

--
Bruce Richardson - W9FZ

"I Must Have Been Blind" This Mortal Coil