"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message

I've got no sympathy with whingers who live in the city and
complain
about the nasties in their water or the lack of it or anything
about
it. They need to get off their arses and see what is happening in
some of our rural communities. It's simply appalling and sucking
the
guts out of the country. I know you've lived in the country so
you
have some idea, but most people are simply clueless except for how
it
impacts on them as the water comes readily from their taps.

since i got here (the country) i've really noticed what a gap there
is
between city people & country people. sadly, it's the majority (city
people)
who just haven't got the first idea about anything! but the onus is
on
country people to stop whingeing & educate them. the two lots are
entirely
interdependent, but you wouldn't know that from observing them.

Having lived in the country for the majority of my life, I strongly
think that country people have more idea of the interdependance and
the realities of life than city people do. We've been in drought for
6 whole years but it is only now that the major metro papers seem to
have woken up about it and only then because the cost of food is
really going to bite the city residents. Lord knows where they
thought (if they did think at all) of where their food came from.
Water and how much of it is available has really been much lower down
the agenda because in comparison to the country, our major cities are
relativeley well supplied and taking it from miles and miles away into
the cities..

I can't stomach whinging about no water for lawns when I know of
one
community where the hairdressers are saying to clients that they
can't
wash their hair so come to the appointment with washed hair. And
the
hairdressers are only the tip of the iceberg. Everyone in that
community is hurting and going broke. We'll leave this drought
with
devastated rural communities.

i agree, but equally, now is the time for rural peeps to be
rethinking how
they do things. i realise they ARE rethinking how to do things, of
course,
but frankly they can't rethink soon enough. they need to have
rethought 5
years ago, because implementing change takes time. but 5 years ago
they
thought they were a protected species & change hasn't been fast
enough.
climate change & global warming were known phenomena 5 years ago; i
find it
sad things need to become critical before people rethink some of
their
methodology, but there you have it, it's the way it's always been.

They've been doing soemthing about it for many more than 5 years with
a few exceptions (like Cubbie).

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city fringe
were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and very
conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land. They had
not only started talking about it but were also doing something about
it. It all started with dry land salinity problems anfdGod knows
farmers have been working on that problem for at least the last 15-20
years..

i think this post sounds like i'm really down on farmers & of course
i'm
not. the whole country needs a reality check while they're sitting
with
their air-conditioning on worrying about climate change. it defies
belief,
really. i blame the government g

:-)) Well don't we all. But it is a long and not well publicised
battle. If people don't buy or read the rural newspapers or follow
rural issues then they certainly don't see or know of what is
happening. Farmers are **** poor at getting their issues across to
the wider population and I'm not sure if that is because farmers are
such a conservative bunch or because the rest of the population would
rather watch idiot shows on TV to finding out what could come around
and bite them on the arse or what it is.

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...
who just haven't got the first idea about anything! but the onus is
on
country people to stop whingeing & educate them. the two lots are
entirely
interdependent, but you wouldn't know that from observing them.

Having lived in the country for the majority of my life, I strongly
think that country people have more idea of the interdependance and
the realities of life than city people do. We've been in drought for
6 whole years but it is only now that the major metro papers seem to
have woken up about it and only then because the cost of food is
really going to bite the city residents.

as a regular reader of city papers (and ex-city dweller), that's not really
so, actually. it's probably fair to say that all individuals have now woken
up to the problem all of a sudden. as an issue, it's just _exploded_
recently, and equally for everyone. i mean, sydney people (and those in
other places) have been experiencing the reality of water shortages for 5
years, haven't they? the fact that most of them don't grow primary produce
only means that for them the situation isn't _dire_ in terms of livelihood
in the short term; but they have been well aware of it for quite some time.
city peeps are generally better-educated and have a much broader view of the
world, their world is just bigger than ours is. i believe it's equally
impossible for most country people to have any idea of what's really going
on in the rest of the country. certainly the media is more accessible, but
it seems to matter less when it's a long way away - it seems a problem
removed, but it's not (as we all live here together).

Lord knows where they
thought (if they did think at all) of where their food came from.

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway). again, it seems to take a crisis
(farmland possibly being taken away for development) for people to realise
what might be lost. argh!

Water and how much of it is available has really been much lower down
the agenda because in comparison to the country, our major cities are
relativeley well supplied and taking it from miles and miles away into
the cities..

a critical mass of people gives benefits, that's true. many services iin the
country are crap - it's not just a water thing. (sigh). we don't exist, you
know ;-)

They've been doing soemthing about it for many more than 5 years with
a few exceptions (like Cubbie).

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city fringe
were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and very
conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land.

that's a good point you make unintentionally - one problem that both farmers
(as a group, not individually - i'm being very general) and "greenies" have
is seeing the other side as the enemy, when _really_ they're obviously on
the same side. but farmers will NOT accept something a greenie said - the
farmer's association has to say it, & _then_ it's true. anyone can be undone
by their own limited world-view, both farmers & ecologists are no exception.
and yet, "green" farmers are fully accepted (by all parties) on their
results, and so many ecological issues are now entirely mainstream anyway,
so why is there not more cooperation and dialogue? it's not green groups
refusing to speak to farmers, that's for sure! it's just both sides not
thinking about who their allies really are.

and again, you've kind of pointed out unwittingly how the national party
have let their constituents down about this sort of thing. at this time, the
nats barely deserve for anyone to vote for them - so why are farmers & nats
in a cosy little voting arrangement that doesn't benefit anyone in the long
term? (that's rhetorical - i don't expect an answer there ;-)

They had
not only started talking about it but were also doing something about
it. It all started with dry land salinity problems anfdGod knows
farmers have been working on that problem for at least the last 15-20
years..

they have - my point is that it's so bad now it's entirely mainstream (which
is kind of good because frankly nothing can happen until people act
together, part of which is letting others know WHAT they are doing, what
they expect, & how it will help. farmers don't do that. city people have to
hunt down information on what's going on - it's mainly the very small &/or
organic/free range farmers who do all the educating of the broader public. i
think with things like the explosion in farmer's markets & general food
awareness really helps - but equally your typical wheat 'n' sheep farmer has
NO dialogue with anyone beyond his own contacts.

:-)) Well don't we all. But it is a long and not well publicised
battle. If people don't buy or read the rural newspapers or follow
rural issues then they certainly don't see or know of what is
happening. Farmers are **** poor at getting their issues across to
the wider population and I'm not sure if that is because farmers are
such a conservative bunch or because the rest of the population would
rather watch idiot shows on TV to finding out what could come around
and bite them on the arse or what it is.

probably both. but we all know that farmers can (and do) whinge for
australia, but when it comes to advertising their successes, bringing their
experience to other people, & whatnot, they're just not there like they
should be (although i do realise they're busy ;-) - you have to watch
slightly obscure shows on the abc to even realise :-). and so they partly
perpetuate their own p.r. problems & are seen to be taking "handouts" for
"non-viable" properties & whatnot, & all this sort of silly stuff. (and
again, the nats are in a position to do good p.r., but they're too caught up
with which association is mad at them, and trying to appease the libs, & all
this sort of thing.)

perhaps you're right & innate conservatism for one's own worldview is really
the only problem. yet clearly they're not cut & dried just plain
conservative - ime country peeps are very open-minded & do try not to judge.
it must be some sort of "with us or against us" mindset that's just not
helpful. i'm not sure.
kylie

0tterbot wrote:

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway).

I think you have just supported his argument very well.
Can I suggest having a look at the labels on boxen that your grocer gets
his produce from. You could even think about the Coles fresh food add
and how all those scenes are taken all so clearly in the Sydney Basin.

Even my cousin the farmer was alarmed to find that Australia imports
more food stuff ($125b pa) than it exports (82b pa), but he quickly
started looking to see what he could grow of the imports.

"Terryc" wrote in message
...
0tterbot wrote:

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway).

I think you have just supported his argument very well.

lol - i can see that :-)
kylie

"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message

who just haven't got the first idea about anything! but the onus
is
on
country people to stop whingeing & educate them. the two lots are
entirely
interdependent, but you wouldn't know that from observing them.

Having lived in the country for the majority of my life, I
strongly
think that country people have more idea of the interdependance
and
the realities of life than city people do. We've been in drought
for
6 whole years but it is only now that the major metro papers seem
to
have woken up about it and only then because the cost of food is
really going to bite the city residents.

as a regular reader of city papers (and ex-city dweller), that's not
really
so, actually. it's probably fair to say that all individuals have
now woken
up to the problem all of a sudden. as an issue, it's just _exploded_
recently, and equally for everyone. i mean, sydney people (and those
in
other places) have been experiencing the reality of water shortages
for 5
years, haven't they?

Oh come on! Sydney people wouldn't know a water shortage if it bit
them on the arse. They only think they do.

the fact that most of them don't grow primary produce
only means that for them the situation isn't _dire_ in terms of
livelihood
in the short term; but they have been well aware of it for quite
some time
city peeps are generally better-educated

????? Not in my experience. They know a lot about some things and
naff all about other things.

and have a much broader view of the
world,

Again, not in my experience. They lack the sort of curiosity and
solution orientation of country people. They have everything handed
to them on a platter and so don't have to come up with innovative or
real life solutions or have to spend time thinking about things that
country people do. This country approach I have always found flows
over into broader mainstream approaches to world politics and foreign
affairs.

their world is just bigger than ours is.

Busier I've found but not bigger. In fact I've always been astounded
at how restricted are the lives of Sydney people in particular.

i believe it's equally
impossible for most country people to have any idea of what's really
going
on in the rest of the country. certainly the media is more
accessible, but
it seems to matter less when it's a long way away - it seems a
problem
removed, but it's not (as we all live here together).

????? I know of farmers who know of what is going on in other parts
of the rural world across the country.

Lord knows where they
thought (if they did think at all) of where their food came from.

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the
sydney
basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway). again, it seems to take a
crisis
(farmland possibly being taken away for development) for people to
realise
what might be lost. argh!

Not so! You have either not been out of the city long enough or have
just proved my point about where city people think their food comes
from.

Water and how much of it is available has really been much lower
down
the agenda because in comparison to the country, our major cities
are
relativeley well supplied and taking it from miles and miles away
into
the cities..

a critical mass of people gives benefits, that's true. many services
iin the
country are crap - it's not just a water thing. (sigh). we don't
exist, you
know ;-)

Well certainly not for the Iemma or federal governments..

They've been doing soemthing about it for many more than 5 years
with
a few exceptions (like Cubbie).

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city
fringe
were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and
very
conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land.

that's a good point you make unintentionally

My point was intentional.

- one problem that both farmers
(as a group, not individually - i'm being very general) and
"greenies" have
is seeing the other side as the enemy,

You are talking in generalisations and it is only the case for some
farmers.

when _really_ they're obviously on
the same side. but farmers will NOT accept something a greenie
said - the
farmer's association has to say it, & _then_ it's true. anyone can
be undone
by their own limited world-view, both farmers & ecologists are no
exception.
and yet, "green" farmers are fully accepted (by all parties) on
their
results, and so many ecological issues are now entirely mainstream
anyway,
so why is there not more cooperation and dialogue? it's not green
groups
refusing to speak to farmers, that's for sure! it's just both sides
not
thinking about who their allies really are.

I suggest you do two things. Do some reading up on P.A. Yeomans. He
was a farmer whose published material goes back to the mid 1950s. The
second thing is to look at the 2006-07 copy of the ABCs "Open Garden
Scheme", page 22 on Lyndfield Park. That farmer started work on his
farm in 1982 and even then what he was doing was not unique. All that
knowledge was around even then.

In article ,
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote:

Oh come on! Sydney people wouldn't know a water shortage if it bit
them on the arse. They only think they do.

Frankly, you don't either. Talk to a Sudanese refugee some time. It's all a
matter of degree.

Again, not in my experience. They lack the sort of curiosity and
solution orientation of country people. They have everything handed
to them on a platter and so don't have to come up with innovative or
real life solutions or have to spend time thinking about things that
country people do. This country approach I have always found flows
over into broader mainstream approaches to world politics and foreign
affairs.

Contry people being well-known for the speed with which they embrace change...

Lord knows where they
thought (if they did think at all) of where their food came from.

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in the
sydney basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway). again, it seems to take a
crisis (farmland possibly being taken away for development) for people to
realise what might be lost. argh!

Not so! You have either not been out of the city long enough or have
just proved my point about where city people think their food comes
from.

Depends exactly what Otterbot means.

http://www.liverpool.nsw.gov.au/scri....asp?NID=27077

Includes the following information from someone at UWS:

'³Agricultural land around Sydney is critically important, particularly when
you consider that 90 per cent of the perishable vegetables eaten in Sydney and
40 per cent of NSW¹s eggs are produced right here,² Parker says.

Parker says that the farm gate value of agriculture in the Sydney basin is
worth $1 billion.'

There are still plenty of orchards on the fringes of Sydney, though not as
many as there used to be. I remember going up to Bilpin to get fresh peaches
when I was a kid. Yum...

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city
fringe were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and
very conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land.

When?

I bought my copy of Blueprint for a Green Planet in 1987, the year I did my
HSC (in a middle-class suburb), and it has a page on the greenhouse effect.

I suggest you do two things. Do some reading up on P.A. Yeomans. He
was a farmer whose published material goes back to the mid 1950s. The
second thing is to look at the 2006-07 copy of the ABCs "Open Garden
Scheme", page 22 on Lyndfield Park. That farmer started work on his
farm in 1982 and even then what he was doing was not unique. All that
knowledge was around even then.

http://gunningnsw.info/index.php/articles/483
will get you the booklet on Lyndfield Park. Unfortunately the author doesn't
say where he got his ideas from, but some of the ideas sound like they are out
of the Permaculture Design Manual.

Google PA Yeomans for the goss on him.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie wrote:

http://www.liverpool.nsw.gov.au/scri....asp?NID=27077

Includes the following information from someone at UWS:

Umm, that doesn't count for much. I always run my farm based on what a
Professor of sociology tells me. I am also quick to follow the spruiking
of someone hammering their own career. you have to remember that the
career of an academic includes "publish or perish".

'³Agricultural land around Sydney is critically important, particularly when
you consider that 90 per cent of the perishable vegetables eaten in Sydney and
40 per cent of NSW¹s eggs are produced right here,² Parker says.

Egg production isn't agriculture in my books. It is a highy
industrialised process and utilises a highly processed feed stock. If
you remove the electricity supply, chickens start dieing real fast.


Unfortunately, the boxes of goods at the market do not reflect this 90%.
I suspect that the good old prof has drawn a very fine line as to what
are "perishable vegetables" and is probably thinking things like some
chinese veges, etc.


Parker says that the farm gate value of agriculture in the Sydney basin is
worth $1 billion.'

Over what period? A year? Works out to be $1.40 per person per day,
which is not much.

And what do they define as agriculture?
Does this "agriculture" include nurseries for example?



There are still plenty of orchards on the fringes of Sydney, though not as
many as there used to be. I remember going up to Bilpin to get fresh peaches
when I was a kid. Yum...

Lol, you want to watch what you buy at those places. Often they bring it
in from outside.

I know that orange orchards towars the north have taken a hammering over
the last few decades.


Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city
fringe were talking about those things when I knew of dead boring and
very conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their land.

When?

I bought my copy of Blueprint for a Green Planet in 1987, the year I did my
HSC (in a middle-class suburb), and it has a page on the greenhouse effect.


I suggest you do two things. Do some reading up on P.A. Yeomans. He
was a farmer whose published material goes back to the mid 1950s. The
second thing is to look at the 2006-07 copy of the ABCs "Open Garden
Scheme", page 22 on Lyndfield Park. That farmer started work on his
farm in 1982 and even then what he was doing was not unique. All that
knowledge was around even then.


http://gunningnsw.info/index.php/articles/483
will get you the booklet on Lyndfield Park. Unfortunately the author doesn't
say where he got his ideas from, but some of the ideas sound like they are out
of the Permaculture Design Manual.

Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren
in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from 1958.

"Terryc" wrote in message
Chookie wrote:

http://www.liverpool.nsw.gov.au/scri....asp?NID=27077

Includes the following information from someone at UWS:

'³Agricultural land around Sydney is critically important,
particularly when
you consider that 90 per cent of the perishable vegetables eaten
in Sydney and
40 per cent of NSW¹s eggs are produced right here,² Parker says.

Egg production isn't agriculture in my books. It is a highy
industrialised process and utilises a highly processed feed stock.
If
you remove the electricity supply, chickens start dieing real fast.

Unfortunately, the boxes of goods at the market do not reflect this
90%.
I suspect that the good old prof has drawn a very fine line as to
what
are "perishable vegetables" and is probably thinking things like
some
chinese veges, etc.


Parker says that the farm gate value of agriculture in the Sydney
basin is
worth $1 billion.'

Over what period? A year? Works out to be $1.40 per person per day,
which is not much.

And what do they define as agriculture?
Does this "agriculture" include nurseries for example?


I wonder if he included the Ingams body factories? They'd have to be
pushing out a fortune in chook meat.

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change
long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city
fringe were talking about those things when I knew of dead
boring and
very conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their
land.

When?

I bought my copy of Blueprint for a Green Planet in 1987, the year
I did my
HSC (in a middle-class suburb), and it has a page on the
greenhouse effect.


I suggest you do two things. Do some reading up on P.A. Yeomans.
He
was a farmer whose published material goes back to the mid 1950s.
The
second thing is to look at the 2006-07 copy of the ABCs "Open
Garden
Scheme", page 22 on Lyndfield Park. That farmer started work on
his
farm in 1982 and even then what he was doing was not unique. All
that
knowledge was around even then.


http://gunningnsw.info/index.php/articles/483
will get you the booklet on Lyndfield Park. Unfortunately the
author doesn't
say where he got his ideas from, but some of the ideas sound like
they are out
of the Permaculture Design Manual.

Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david
Holmgren
in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from
1958.

Exactly so! I believe it was "The Challenge of Landscape".

He also used the 1963 book by Lord called "The Care of the Earth".
I've always been rather surprised that Louis Bromfield's "Malabar
Farm" (1948) didn't somehow make it into the Bibliography given what a
seminal work that was.

In article
,
Terryc wrote:

'³Agricultural land around Sydney is critically important, particularly
when
you consider that 90 per cent of the perishable vegetables eaten in Sydney
and
40 per cent of NSW¹s eggs are produced right here,² Parker says.

Egg production isn't agriculture in my books. It is a highy
industrialised process and utilises a highly processed feed stock. If
you remove the electricity supply, chickens start dieing real fast.

Well, you and I don't control the definition of 'agriculture'.

Unfortunately, the boxes of goods at the market do not reflect this 90%.
I suspect that the good old prof has drawn a very fine line as to what
are "perishable vegetables" and is probably thinking things like some
chinese veges, etc.

I think so -- herbs, lettuce, bok choy etc -- not things like spuds and
carrots.

Parker says that the farm gate value of agriculture in the Sydney basin is
worth $1 billion.'

Over what period? A year? Works out to be $1.40 per person per day,
which is not much.

shrug
What are you comparing it to?

And what do they define as agriculture?
Does this "agriculture" include nurseries for example?

Quite possibly -- and I believe it includes cut flowers too.

There are still plenty of orchards on the fringes of Sydney, though not as
many as there used to be. I remember going up to Bilpin to get fresh
peaches when I was a kid. Yum...

Lol, you want to watch what you buy at those places. Often they bring it
in from outside.

I was amused by this once. Apple boxes saying not 'Bilpin' but 'Batlow'! No,
the peaches I remember were softball size and probably too ripe to send to
Sydney, being sold by a family at the edge of their property. They were
heavenly.

Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren
in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from 1958.

And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen together any
more. Anyone know the goss?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren
in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from
1958.

And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen together any
more. Anyone know the goss?

never mind the goss - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not
GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-)

afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to
soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". who
the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing??
kylie

"Chookie" wrote in message
Terryc wrote:

Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david
Holmgren
in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book
from 1958.

And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen
together any
more. Anyone know the goss?

I actually think it was origianlly Holmgren's work and Bill hitched
along later. I had heard that Bill is sick and he's now also quite
elderly.

"Chookie" wrote in message
In article "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote:

Oh come on! Sydney people wouldn't know a water shortage if it
bit
them on the arse. They only think they do.

Frankly, you don't either. Talk to a Sudanese refugee some time.
It's all a
matter of degree.

Well of course it's a matter of degree! However, I dare say I have a
much better idea about drought than some Sydney dweller who only has
to turn on a tap to get water.

And we aren't talking about Sudan. We are talking about Australia.
Sydney people should try living under the regimes in say Goulburn or
Byrock where the residents recently went for 4 and a half days without
water. They don't kick up a fuss because their water is taken from
hundreds of miles away to feed their gawping needs.

Again, not in my experience. They lack the sort of curiosity and
solution orientation of country people. They have everything
handed
to them on a platter and so don't have to come up with innovative
or
real life solutions or have to spend time thinking about things
that
country people do. This country approach I have always found
flows
over into broader mainstream approaches to world politics and
foreign
affairs.

Contry people being well-known for the speed with which they embrace
change...

:-))) Nice job of stereotyping.

Lord knows where they
thought (if they did think at all) of where their food came
from.

again speaking for sydney - most fresh food there is grown in
the
sydney basin - it's local :-) (for now, anyway). again, it seems
to take a
crisis (farmland possibly being taken away for development) for
people to
realise what might be lost. argh!

Not so! You have either not been out of the city long enough or
have
just proved my point about where city people think their food
comes
from.

Depends exactly what Otterbot means.

http://www.liverpool.nsw.gov.au/scri....asp?NID=27077

Includes the following information from someone at UWS:

'³Agricultural land around Sydney is critically important,
particularly when
you consider that 90 per cent of the perishable vegetables eaten in
Sydney and
40 per cent of NSW¹s eggs are produced right here,² Parker says.

Parker says that the farm gate value of agriculture in the Sydney
basin is
worth $1 billion.'

The Syney basin IS important for agriculture (one of my Grandfathers
was a market gardener at Botany so I DO know of the importance of this
area). However it is not the be all and end all that Otterbot seems
to think it is. And the ABS figure for the value of annual
agriculture in the Sydney basin is $450 million rather than the $1
billion mentioned by the Professor.

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change
long
before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city
fringe were talking about those things when I knew of dead
boring and
very conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on their
land.

When?

I bought my copy of Blueprint for a Green Planet in 1987, the year I
did my
HSC (in a middle-class suburb), and it has a page on the greenhouse
effect.

Really 1987! Bit slow off the mark.

Those stereotypically slow to accept change country people you think
so little of, first noticed such issues as salinity about a century
ago and they noticed dryland salinity in the mid 1920s. And farmers
in the WA SW first noticed and started commenting on the start of the
change to rainfall patterns in the 1970s. My own family also started
to talk of the decline in rainfall on their farm in NSW about the same
time and they live in a high rainfall area on the same farm which was
first settled by my GGGfather in 1862. The rainfall record books are
fascinating reading and especially during WWII when the women took
over for some reason.

And you may be interested in another book called "Planning for
sustainable farming: the Potter farmland plan story". This book was
published in 1991 but it records the work on a goup of farms that
started in 1983.

I suggest you do two things. Do some reading up on P.A. Yeomans.
He
was a farmer whose published material goes back to the mid 1950s.
The
second thing is to look at the 2006-07 copy of the ABCs "Open
Garden
Scheme", page 22 on Lyndfield Park. That farmer started work on
his
farm in 1982 and even then what he was doing was not unique. All
that
knowledge was around even then.

http://gunningnsw.info/index.php/articles/483
will get you the booklet on Lyndfield Park.

I already have it and have seen the farm.

Unfortunately the author doesn't
say where he got his ideas from, but some of the ideas sound like
they are out
of the Permaculture Design Manual.

Yes it does but then a lot of publications sound like that.

Google PA Yeomans for the goss on him.

His first publication on Keyline was in 1954. You can view it he
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglib...010125toc.html

Farm1 wrote:

The Syney basin IS important for agriculture (one of my Grandfathers
was a market gardener at Botany so I DO know of the importance of this
area).

what name?
I suspect my direct lot had moved to Leeton, and were heading to Matcham
by then



Those stereotypically slow to accept change country people you think
so little of, first noticed such issues as salinity about a century
ago and they noticed dryland salinity in the mid 1920s.

The real problem for farmers were the various dept of agriculture which
advised governments of the day and compelled some farmers to grow
certain crops in bad area.

"Terryc" wrote in message
Farm1 wrote:

The Syney basin IS important for agriculture (one of my
Grandfathers
was a market gardener at Botany so I DO know of the importance of
this
area).

what name?

William (Bill) Mortimer aka "The Cabbage King".

I suspect my direct lot had moved to Leeton, and were heading to
Matcham
by then

Those stereotypically slow to accept change country people you
think
so little of, first noticed such issues as salinity about a
century
ago and they noticed dryland salinity in the mid 1920s.

The real problem for farmers were the various dept of agriculture
which
advised governments of the day and compelled some farmers to grow
certain crops in bad area.

And bad advice from Govt agencies and Consultants about high stocking
rates and increasing production by flogging the land was still going
on well into the 80s. Sad.

In article ,
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote:

Frankly, you don't either. Talk to a Sudanese refugee some time.
It's all a matter of degree.

Well of course it's a matter of degree! However, I dare say I have a
much better idea about drought than some Sydney dweller who only has
to turn on a tap to get water.

And we aren't talking about Sudan. We are talking about Australia.
Sydney people should try living under the regimes in say Goulburn or
Byrock where the residents recently went for 4 and a half days without
water. They don't kick up a fuss because their water is taken from
hundreds of miles away to feed their gawping needs.

I don't see why Sydney people wouldn't be able to put up with that, if
necessary. Of course we have 4 million people here, and some of them are
dills -- we've had people like the OP protesting to the newspapers about not
watering their lawns, but they get bucketed (no pun intended!). And of course
our decision-makers are often dills (don't get me started on Sartor or
desalination!) so they're the ones who start talking about pinching the water
from Tallowa etc.

My letter on a related subject was published today. I am now awaiting the
backlash from the anti-germ brigade. (Near the bottom of the page...)

http://www.smh.com.au/letters/index....e#contentSwap2

Again, not in my experience. They lack the sort of curiosity and
solution orientation of country people. They have everything
handed to them on a platter and so don't have to come up with
innovative or real life solutions or have to spend time thinking
about things that country people do.

Sydney is not Cranbrook. Nor does it consist entirely of the North Shore.

Truth be told, there are probably too many people in Sydney who don't 'think
about things' because they are trying to keep their heads above (metaphorical)
water of some kind. I work in TAFE and I see these people.

Contry people being well-known for the speed with which they embrace
change...

:-))) Nice job of stereotyping.

Yours too ;-)

Farmers were talking about Global warming and climate change
long before the bulk of the population. Only the real lunatic city
fringe were talking about those things when I knew of dead
boring and very conservative farmers who'd noticed the impact on
their land.

When?

I bought my copy of Blueprint for a Green Planet in 1987, the year I
did my HSC (in a middle-class suburb), and it has a page on the
greenhouse effect.

Really 1987! Bit slow off the mark.

I was 17, you geriatric! Couldn't afford to buy books before I turned 16 and
became eligible for Austudy.

Those stereotypically slow to accept change country people you think
so little of, first noticed such issues as salinity about a century
ago and they noticed dryland salinity in the mid 1920s. And farmers
in the WA SW first noticed and started commenting on the start of the
change to rainfall patterns in the 1970s. My own family also started
to talk of the decline in rainfall on their farm in NSW about the same
time and they live in a high rainfall area on the same farm which was
first settled by my GGGfather in 1862.

The question is: what did they DO about it? For example, farmers were still
*clearing* the WA wheat area in the 1920s. The plantings/earthworks I saw
were, I would estimate, ten years old. Bit of a gap there.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue