Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
In article
, Terryc wrote: '³Agricultural land around Sydney is critically important, particularly when you consider that 90 per cent of the perishable vegetables eaten in Sydney and 40 per cent of NSW¹s eggs are produced right here,² Parker says. Egg production isn't agriculture in my books. It is a highy industrialised process and utilises a highly processed feed stock. If you remove the electricity supply, chickens start dieing real fast. Well, you and I don't control the definition of 'agriculture'. Unfortunately, the boxes of goods at the market do not reflect this 90%. I suspect that the good old prof has drawn a very fine line as to what are "perishable vegetables" and is probably thinking things like some chinese veges, etc. I think so -- herbs, lettuce, bok choy etc -- not things like spuds and carrots. Parker says that the farm gate value of agriculture in the Sydney basin is worth $1 billion.' Over what period? A year? Works out to be $1.40 per person per day, which is not much. shrug What are you comparing it to? And what do they define as agriculture? Does this "agriculture" include nurseries for example? Quite possibly -- and I believe it includes cut flowers too. There are still plenty of orchards on the fringes of Sydney, though not as many as there used to be. I remember going up to Bilpin to get fresh peaches when I was a kid. Yum... Lol, you want to watch what you buy at those places. Often they bring it in from outside. I was amused by this once. Apple boxes saying not 'Bilpin' but 'Batlow'! No, the peaches I remember were softball size and probably too ripe to send to Sydney, being sold by a family at the edge of their property. They were heavenly. Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from 1958. And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen together any more. Anyone know the goss? -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"Chookie" wrote in message
... Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from 1958. And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen together any more. Anyone know the goss? never mind the goss - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". who the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing?? kylie |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"0tterbot" wrote in message
"Chookie" wrote in message Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from 1958. And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen together any more. Anyone know the goss? never mind the goss - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) Which books have you read and what is it about them that you aren't getting? afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". who the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing?? What don't you understand about slopes and windbreaks? Which book mentions a fire mandala? Most of the physical Permaculature principles ARE bleeding obvious (or it is to most country people who have some experience of the land [sorry, but I couldn't resist that dig given your previous comments about the better education and bigger world of city people]} |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
0tterbot wrote:
never mind the goss I just suspect that it is normal post-grad student did all the work and Prof getting all the glory scene. - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) which ones? All it really is is bringing together some ideas in sustainable agriculture so you basically have a self sustaining block of land for a family. And perhaps sell/trade your surplus at the local market. Buy a block of land, establish vege garden, orchard, grazing, etc, etc so you are not forever mowing, ploughing, suffering major pest attack, dispensing chemicals, etc, etc afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". What do you base the statement about soil type on? It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. who the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing?? I have absolutely no idea if your rubbish burns off better in a fire mandala or not. Just have a chuckle at the touchy-feely stuff earth spirit stuff and ignore it. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"Terryc" wrote in message
... 0tterbot wrote: never mind the goss I just suspect that it is normal post-grad student did all the work and Prof getting all the glory scene. - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) which ones? most recently "permaculture two" (mollison) and prior to that two others which were so underwhelming i can't even think what they are called. and i'm not about to re-borrow them from the library in order to remind myself ;-) All it really is is bringing together some ideas in sustainable agriculture so you basically have a self sustaining block of land for a family. And perhaps sell/trade your surplus at the local market. Buy a block of land, establish vege garden, orchard, grazing, etc, etc so you are not forever mowing, ploughing, suffering major pest attack, dispensing chemicals, etc, etc ya, that all makes sense (the entire motivation goes into the "bleeding obvious" basket ;-). afaict, it's all about slopes and windbreaks & planting stuff irrelevent to soil type etc, & the remainder is what i'd call "the bleeding obvious". What do you base the statement about soil type on? the fact it was 100% never mentioned whatsoever in any of the books (and i do understand that "gardening" or "farming", as information-based concepts, aren't what the books are really about) - at all. in fact, the only physical aspect of the land they seemed interested in at all was SLOPE! i couldn't even find any references in any of them pertaining to flattish land! perhaps it's just mollison et al's appalling writing style. it was like the books had no beginning or end, it was all just bla. It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. i'm assuming that people would get a basic grasp of the process before they progress to permaculture (permaculture being so design-based) but again, such basic things are worth incorporating into a book on a concept which is supposed to be wholistic(???) similarly it occurred to me that what we call obvious in 2006 might have, in the 1970s, been temporarily forgotten or pushed to one side & had to be reintroduced by garden writers generally. certainly modern books & info are pretty different to 40 year old stuff in general. who the hell needs a fire mandala? what am i missing?? I have absolutely no idea if your rubbish burns off better in a fire mandala or not. the mandala's in perm two. i would not be able to tell you what it's for. in the cartoon there was a little bloke sitting with his campfire in the middle of his mandala. perhaps it is a way to have an illegal outdoor fire during summer, without anyone knowing? (and presumably with no risk of it getting out of control..?). Just have a chuckle at the touchy-feely stuff earth spirit stuff and ignore it. i just sort of feel robbed - as though i was supposed to have "aha!" moments reading about this marvellous movement but it was all babble, politics (and slopes and windbreaks ;-) and the intense and repetitive way mr mollison wants us all to CONTROL our land rather freaks me out. most of my property is regenerating bushland. big bill is evidently of the opinion i should sell most of it, as it is too big for me to CONTROL. i must have just wanted to have a whinge!! g kylie |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote: - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) snip perhaps it's just mollison et al's appalling writing style. it was like the books had no beginning or end, it was all just bla. i just sort of feel robbed - as though i was supposed to have "aha!" moments reading about this marvellous movement but it was all babble, politics (and slopes and windbreaks ;-) and the intense and repetitive way mr mollison wants us all to CONTROL our land rather freaks me out. most of my property is regenerating bushland. big bill is evidently of the opinion i should sell most of it, as it is too big for me to CONTROL. Sounds like you missed out on the Permaculture Design Manual and (IIRC) Permaculture One. The Earth User's Guide to Permaculture (by Rosemary Morrow) is quite accessible and better written than the others. Permaculture is agriculture for engineers. It looks at ways of saving energy rather than money. For example, my chooks are at present living under my lemon tree. They have removed the grass that was competing with the tree roots, spread mulch, and added fertiliser to the area. There are other ways to achieve the same results, but this is an energy-efficient one. The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things work for you with a minimum amount of effort. Soil characteristics are definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM. In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff to eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The lemon tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*. THAT is "control". The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique. HTH, -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"Chookie" wrote in message
"0tterbot" wrote: - i've read 3 permaculture books so far & i'm just not GETTING IT. what's the goss on that? :-) snip perhaps it's just mollison et al's appalling writing style. it was like the books had no beginning or end, it was all just bla. i just sort of feel robbed - as though i was supposed to have "aha!" moments reading about this marvellous movement but it was all babble, politics (and slopes and windbreaks ;-) and the intense and repetitive way mr mollison wants us all to CONTROL our land rather freaks me out. most of my property is regenerating bushland. big bill is evidently of the opinion i should sell most of it, as it is too big for me to CONTROL. Sounds like you missed out on the Permaculture Design Manual and (IIRC) Permaculture One. The Earth User's Guide to Permaculture (by Rosemary Morrow) is quite accessible and better written than the others. I don't like the books of Rosemary Morrow that I've seen. I've got one and never go near it. Permaculture is agriculture for engineers. It looks at ways of saving energy rather than money. For example, my chooks are at present living under my lemon tree. They have removed the grass that was competing with the tree roots, spread mulch, and added fertiliser to the area. There are other ways to achieve the same results, but this is an energy-efficient one. The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things work for you with a minimum amount of effort. Soil characteristics are definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM. In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff to eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The lemon tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*. THAT is "control". The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique. Not a bad summation. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"Chookie" wrote in message
... Sounds like you missed out on the Permaculture Design Manual and (IIRC) Permaculture One. The Earth User's Guide to Permaculture (by Rosemary Morrow) is quite accessible and better written than the others. since that is one i did read (only the third title is now a mystery to me) clearly i'm not missing much if i never worry about the others ;-) Permaculture is agriculture for engineers. AHH. i think in one sentence, you have got to the bottom of the problem! It looks at ways of saving energy rather than money. For example, my chooks are at present living under my lemon tree. They have removed the grass that was competing with the tree roots, spread mulch, and added fertiliser to the area. There are other ways to achieve the same results, but this is an energy-efficient one. The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things work for you with a minimum amount of effort. it's interesting to me that you got this from the books. perhaps you read better books by people who came later. perhaps you read better than i do. "minimum amount of effort" did not appear to be anyone's aim in anything i read. something like "fiddle with absolutely everything according to our model and leave nothing that was there prior, standing, plant loads of beech trees, and i certainly hope your block is sloped, young lady!!" is all i got from them. :-) Soil characteristics are definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM. In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff to eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The lemon tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*. THAT is "control". no it's not, it's perfectly sensible :-) what would you make of a statement declaring one should not have a property bigger than a couple of acres, because you would not be able to CONTROL it? (i freely admit the ordinary person _can't_ really "control" more than a few hectares - i just can't see what the problem is with that.) The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique. what, stuff he thought up that nobody's ever tried? it's probably just not, in & of itself, my thing, & that's probably why i've got such an attitude about it. i suspect that the perfectly sensible elements have become mainstream(ish) and my own attitude, of working with what is already here, rather than tearing it all down & re-inventing the wheel, just won't go with 70s style permiculture. HTH, it does, but notwithstanding that, my land is sloped all over. big bill would wet himself with joy!! my windbreaks would bring tears to his eyes!!! ok i'll stop now, sorry.... :-) kylie |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
0tterbot wrote:
what would you make of a statement declaring one should not have a property bigger than a couple of acres, because you would not be able to CONTROL it? True statement, BUT, I really want the extra land to give me noise reduction so I do not have to hear the neighbours dog, kids cars, lawn mower, etc, etc, etc with the exta land you can run cattle of something to improve your tax lurk. i.e farmer discounts on rates. Also allows you to but stock cheap and hold until they fit in the freezer {:-). |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote: Permaculture is agriculture for engineers. AHH. i think in one sentence, you have got to the bottom of the problem! The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things work for you with a minimum amount of effort. it's interesting to me that you got this from the books. perhaps you read better books by people who came later. perhaps you read better than i do. I got that from PDM, on my first reading of it and with no understanding of permaculture prior to that. Of course it doesn't actually SAY that, but if you know any engineers, you recognise the mind-set instantly! The premise of all engineering, AFAICS, is to create a system to deliver the required results as efficiently as possible, and to prevent catastrophic failures. The idea of broadacre wheat farming, where you drill your seed in, then wait a few months before experiencing crop failure/success, is completely alien to the engineering mind (it's efficient, but it does not prevent catastrophic failure). The idea of continuous polyculture to spread risk would make much more sense to them. "minimum amount of effort" did not appear to be anyone's aim in anything i read. something like "fiddle with absolutely everything according to our model and leave nothing that was there prior, standing, plant loads of beech trees, and i certainly hope your block is sloped, young lady!!" is all i got from them. :-) Sounds like the principles got a bit mixed up with technique there. Elevation is handy simply because it enables you to use gravity, ie, free energy. THe "fiddling" is where you get existing processes to work for you -- ie, they would all have been examples. This is starting to remind me of debates about Attachment Parenting in misc.kids, where people say AP is a hard-line approach to parenting, instead of seeing that it's a few principles (the first one being "understand your child's needs") and a lot of suggested techniques. Did you interpret "slashing" leguminous plants as "chopping them down", perhaps? http://www.tortuga.com/permacultura/...Principles.htm gives a very succinct summary of the design principles of permaculture, in which you will see the words "energy" and "system" appear frequently. Soil characteristics are definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM. In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff to eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The lemon tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*. THAT is "control". no it's not, it's perfectly sensible :-) I think Linda Woodrow explains it best: in The Permaculture Home Garden, she explains that we are best at working with our brains, so we should consider design of the garden (following study of local conditions, principles of gardening etc) as our primary work. We should leave the job of destroying snails and spreading fertiliser to the poultry :-) what would you make of a statement declaring one should not have a property bigger than a couple of acres, because you would not be able to CONTROL it? (i freely admit the ordinary person _can't_ really "control" more than a few hectares - i just can't see what the problem is with that.) Where was that? What was the context? I do think it would be hard to get a continuous polyculture going on a bigger scale than that, so it would depend on what was to be attempted. The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique. what, stuff he thought up that nobody's ever tried? Well, planting beech trees for a timber crop that in the meantime feeds and shades your pigs, who fertilise the trees and supply you with meat/income until the trees can be harvested. That's an example of a guild. it's probably just not, in & of itself, my thing, & that's probably why i've got such an attitude about it. If my comments have been helpful in changing your mind, Rosemary Morrow's book has just come out in a second edition! -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
0tterbot wrote:
It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. i'm assuming that people would get a basic grasp of the process Nope, wrong assumption. Seriously, you have got to meet some of these people to believe how little they know/knew. It was good for a laugh, except when some poor animal was suffering. Obviously you are the wrong market. i must have just wanted to have a whinge!! g Naah, one of the benefits of being able to speed read is to decide if the book is really worth the $$$ asked. Do not ever trust anyones recommendation. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"Terryc" wrote in message
... 0tterbot wrote: It isn't obvious to people who don't have a clue and haven't talked or looked at stuff before. i'm assuming that people would get a basic grasp of the process Nope, wrong assumption. Seriously, you have got to meet some of these people to believe how little they know/knew. It was good for a laugh, except when some poor animal was suffering. i did a short course on organic gardening one time - it was based on an "absolute beginner" level of student, with the (obvious) result that everyone in the class was amazingly bored for the duration of the entire course, although our handouts (NOT designed for raw beginners) were very interesting. logically it seems to me, that one couldn't (or most likely wouldn't, anyway) be interested in _organic_ gardening if one didn't have the first idea how to garden by any method in the first place. kwim? Obviously you are the wrong market. i think so, but it bothers me when i find something incomprehensible. Naah, one of the benefits of being able to speed read is to decide if the book is really worth the $$$ asked. Do not ever trust anyones recommendation. i might not trust it exactly, but i'm always interested in it! and then there's the library, bless. kylie |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Water restrictions and gardens
"Chookie" wrote in message
Terryc wrote: Lol, children. Permaculture was a product of the work of david Holmgren in the 70s and includes the work of Yeomans, including one book from 1958. And Bill Mollison, but he and Holmgren don't seem to be seen together any more. Anyone know the goss? I actually think it was origianlly Holmgren's work and Bill hitched along later. I had heard that Bill is sick and he's now also quite elderly. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Re Water Restrictions | Australia | |||
Drier conditions & water restrictions - what to do? | United Kingdom | |||
Water Restrictions | Edible Gardening | |||
Hey George ( Water Restrictions | Edible Gardening | |||
Water restrictions / Grey water / efficient drip feed system. | Australia |