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#46
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Large scale permaculture
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: They'll go and spend 2 bucks buying a plastic packed bunch of miserable coriander rather than spending a few minutes putting in a few seeds and doing a bit of watering now and then. A whole seasons worht of coriander could be had for the 2 bucks they spend, but they'd rather buy it than put in a small effort. Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with only two leaves bolt before... They already DO have that problem. But given that consumers don't bloody care how many food miles their food has done, just so long as they can eat what they want, when they want, it is consumers who will get hit time and time again till they get a bit smarter and start to shop smarter. I cannot believe that any Australian would buy oranges produced in California, but the shops are full of them and they sell. There was the time I bought a few lemons -- and I KNEW that lemons were in season at the time, and assumed they were local -- got home and saw the word California on the stickers! Aiee! -- Chookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/ |
#47
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Large scale permaculture
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:41:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote: snipped Len I seem to have missed this post somehow and gone on to reply to you further down the thread - maybe I have a propagation problem, I swear I couldn't see this yesterday. Anyway I find much good sense in what you say here. I recall fondly the market gardens embedded in or close to the city and it does make sense in a world where transport costs are set to rise hugely. But how to stop or even reverse the trend of turning such areas into housing? David g'day david, some here think that this is my idea totally? but that is so they can protect their comfort zones at this time. i responded to your post, and along with what mollesin and holmgren also say we need change and as you poijnted out it needs to start at some point or the change will be harder and harder to do. it took around 40 or 50 years for us to be taken to where we are now so it could easily take that long to turn around. so it is no good anyone exposing the hind quarters with their head in a bucket of sand, you know what happens while your behind is exposed hey? this will take a drive from the whole community, but alas once we say never then never it will be. there is a lot more food could be grown at home than what there currently is so even there, there is no effort going on. but anyway unless something new comes along this will be my last response as i see it i'm only a messenger, the problem is already occuring. we need farmers with insight who can see that even without the permaculture label (which is about all you can realy say) they need to be very much more sustainable, and the farmers won't budge until pressure comes from the community. every time i see tv shows of england i see this monolithic castles and edifaces with vast areas of well kept lawn and pretty gardens, yet i'm sure like here there are people in those communities that are short on food, so waht if you have to walk along paths between productive vege' gardens or fruit trees to get to the building. food does not grow overnight it takes time for all crops to mature. take care mate. With peace and brightest of blessings, len & bev -- "Be Content With What You Have And May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In A World That You May Not Understand." http://www.lensgarden.com.au/ |
#48
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Large scale permaculture
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
... I doubt that roof/balcony gardens in the big cities of my acquaintance (Sydney, Melbourne) are ever going to produce more than a supplement to the diets of the inhabitants and that would be at a great cost of materials. These cities are looking at permanent water restrictions and great increases in the cost of water. Squandering tap water in this way is pointless. Roof water is insignificant in high rise due to the high ratio of people to roof area. you might be over-focussing on roof growing, here, david :-) sydney & melbourne have a lot of land space in people's yards. while back yard (and balcony!!) fruit & veg growing seems insignificant, it's not really (particularly when you consider how common it was once and (i dearly hope) will be again. have you seen any of the designs (e.g. clive blazey's) for food gardens in the ordinary smallish yard? it's actually fairly impressive. considering that farming itself (on farms) isn't going away any time soon, i can't see that there'd be too many problems anyway, but certainly cities like sydney & melbourne would be fully capable of most (although not all) householders growing a surprising quantity of fruit & veg _if they wanted to_. added to that, another of c. blazey's "things" is substituting food plants for ornamentals (food plants being handily ornamental as well, nice that). a tiny yard (such as i had myself in sydney, various locations) with some ornamentals can be refigured to a tiny yard full of food plants. i doubt that such a yard could meet all the householders' needs, but you need to consider how much they _could_ produce. as more people make such changes, we will know more. it's endless really - small town near here has a strip where the street trees are fruit trees (possibly planted by householders, i don't know). people are thinking of new ways to make gardening more vertical, to handle small spaces. etc. i have lived nearby to food-oriented gardens in the burbs of canberra! hence that is why i believe they're more common than we think, and are entirely practical too. anyone could do it. You seem to be assuming there will be a great catastrophe and that drastic measures will be required to survive. My original question was about whether permaculture was a suitable replacement for broadacre farming, I am more interested trying to find ways of not having a catastrophe. i think the poster's point is that cuba actually had that catastrophe, but they turned it around. in a crisis, people are galvanised. until such a crisis, well, they're not, & until then tend not to think about the problem, even. this is actually a problem, because things like "loss of agricultural land" or even "climate change" don't really affect anyone in (say) sydney at this time. they cannot conceive what the problem might be. yet, we all know that in an unforseen severe crisis, you could starve the population out within a week (although it actually takes longer than a week to starve to death, of course - say 3 or 4). there's no food storage there beyond 3 or 4 _days_, it would be (relatively) easy (for an Organisation of Baddies) to block the roads so nobody could go in or out. really! now, i doubt that will ever happen of course, but equally i doubt the populace even realises how vulnerable they potentially are. the cuban situation was apparently national, so therefore a bit more easily solved by the populace as a whole. gardening is entirely empowering, for quite obvious reasons. what a high-density mega-city could or would do i don't know, & i must admit it's really not my problem, so i don't have any intention of devoting more thought to that. It's in that ring area about 1 1/2 hours from the city centre that so much good land is getting turned into housing estates. I agree with you and Len that there is a problem there. I don't see how to fix it though, do you? get the developers on the run! g seriously, in nsw it is looking like developers' days of doing whatever the hell they like are going to be, of necessity, numbered. not a bad thing, that. How did we go from agrarian economies to the present? By huge increases in specialisation and efficiency. no, because the industrial revolution happened! "huge increases in specialisation and efficiency" really only occurred in the way that (i assume) you are thinking of, post ww2. hello, herbicides! Sadly broadacre farming has serious unwanted side effects and demands inputs that are going to be much more expensive or not available in future. it's also not AT ALL efficient in the way (i assume) you are thinking of. for example, backyard veggie gardens are massively more water-efficient than a broadacre veggie farm & more able to supply their own inputs. small farms are more efficient than big ones. sheer magnitude does not equal something being genuinely efficient - it brings a certain economy of scale, but in every other way is less efficient - even growth and plant health is not so good, because it's monocultural, so you don't get the returns per square metre that you would on a small, mixed farm. so yes, the cost of inputs is inefficient as well, and the undesirable outputs impinge seriously on any genuine "efficiency". someone told me recently (no idea how true it is, but it doesn't sound "wrong" to me based on my observations) that with broadacre farming, you only expect to make 6% over your inputs (ie. make $106 dollars for every $100 spent) which doesn't count the eventual cost of damaging outputs. by any measure, that is wildly inefficient & is going to have to change rapidly. I mention efficiency because it must be a factor in any system of sustainable growing that replaces the broadacre farming. In a future of very limited resources where the per capita consumption of resources will have to be reduced in countries like yours and mine how can we countenance inefficiency? we can't countenance it now, yet we do :-) solutions would include: smaller, more mixed farms. farms focussing on growing crops or livestock which work in the conditions that exist, not to continue trying to alter conditions when it can't be done. the populace growing more of its own food (whether that means in one's own yard, or buying locally, as directly as possible). further reducing the import sector (which actually is quite small at the moment in terms of food, thankfully - to not allow this to increase whatsoever, and actively work on reducing it to near-zero). active governmental preservation of agricultural land (including putting their foot down re expanding cities even more). proper support for farmers - rather than bailing them out of disaster after disaster, to aid in remaking the farming sector a bit & utilising knowledge which is there, so that people are getting good outcomes for all, rather than struggling on as is, inefficiently & in some cases disastrously. to educate the public (this isn't going to happen this week - as i said the govt wants you to buy a cabbage, not to grow one. most governments need their heads read on this matter - they are simply _wrong_.) there are lots of things to be done, it's a question of will, not of possibility. two other things i was told recently by different people, neither of which i have checked, but include as discussion points perhaps - firstly, that john macarthur's obsession with sheep put the mockers on other peoples' ideas for farming more suitable livestock. secondly, that a chicken farmer needs (iirc) 20,000 birds to be considered a primary producer. (20,000!!! i consider 20 birds to be primary production! ;-) clearly, there's a bit of re-thinking that needs to be done. re-thinking is good. kylie |
#49
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Large scale permaculture
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
... all these things are interrelated. thank you for reading my rant! :-) kylie Current economic dogma says you must have growth around 3% per year for a healthy economy. Nobody knows how to do it with much less without having unacceptable unemployment. Thus the current model condemns us to be constantly expanding: population, energy use, mineral use, land use, must all grow indefinitely. Except that obviously in the real world they cannot. Political systems around the world that reward short term popularity and punish long term planning don't help. we know that the current model doesn't help - it's getting the beancounters & other bottom-feeders to accept that is the problem. the first world govt to actively remake the situation is going to be everyone's hero. of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. & crushed for the next 50 years ;-) kylie |
#50
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Large scale permaculture
Charlie wrote in message
... On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:59:33 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote: of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. & crushed for the next 50 years ;-) kylie Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in Iraq. truly?! my goodness. Got Oil! (er, won't all the oil be gone by then?) Foo, we yanks, gonna grab it all. All for us and none for others. **** me, hurry and put us out of our misery and save yerselves. Charlie well, not to rain on your parade, but self-hating americans are nearly as tedious as the other kind! g! i know, it hurts to realise that nothing about yourselves is unique or particularly interesting in either a good or a bad sense, but you'll manage :-) have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?) kylie |
#51
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Large scale permaculture
Chookie wrote:
Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with only two leaves bolt before... Lol, I know exactly what you mean. |
#52
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Large scale permaculture
In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote: Charlie wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:59:33 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote: of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. & crushed for the next 50 years ;-) kylie Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in Iraq. truly?! my goodness. Got Oil! (er, won't all the oil be gone by then?) Foo, we yanks, gonna grab it all. All for us and none for others. **** me, hurry and put us out of our misery and save yerselves. Charlie well, not to rain on your parade, but self-hating americans are nearly as tedious as the other kind! g! i know, it hurts to realise that nothing about yourselves is unique or particularly interesting in either a good or a bad sense, but you'll manage :-) I beg to differ with you 0tterbot. We Americans seem to live in a strange state of schizophrenia. Most people who meet us find that we can be charming and thoughtful, yet most people would say that our government is self-serving at best, and at worst, criminal. We consume 25% of the worlds energy and presently have plans to continue fouling the air that you breath by extracting fossil fuel from oil shale and tar sands long after the Saudi wells run dry. Global warming just may be a new marketing opportunity;-) Our government, with our tax dollars, spends 40% of the worlds budget on weapons. That means that we are a bunch of dangerous motherf***ers. We are also the world largest arms suppliers, so any war is a good war for us:-) You, my friend, have no control over the 800 lb. gorilla in the cage with you, we do, and don't exercise it. I am always impressed that a six month old child from anywhere sounds and acts the same. We are all born equal (no nation has a monopoly on saints or sinners) but the tribe that we are born into determines our personal power and pecking order. We, the Americans, are in a position to exert pressure on that gorilla. Charlie, was selflessly ignoring his tribe, and beseeching his brothers and sister of our species to save humanity. Can you imagine his hubris? have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?) kylie -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#53
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Large scale permaculture
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:14:17 -0500, Charlie wrote:
Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in Iraq. Got Oil! They call themselves the Project for a New American Century for a reason. |
#54
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Large scale permaculture
"0tterbot" wrote in message
have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?) There's something about Obama that I feel is a bit plastic. Dunno what it is but I just haven't warmed to him. |
#55
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Large scale permaculture
"Terryc" wrote in message
Chookie wrote: Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with only two leaves bolt before... Lol, I know exactly what you mean. Plant in your winter. You must both be in a much hotter climate than I am. I had huge bushes and I planted in spring. |
#56
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Large scale permaculture
"Chookie" wrote in message news:ehrebeniuk-E4EAEC.23360110042008@news... Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with only two leaves bolt before... I only grow it during the winter, it's frost hardy. David |
#57
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Large scale permaculture
Charlie wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:28:55 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote: have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?) kylie What? He's sucking up to the new big money since our economy is going down the shitter? What a louse. :-) no, i meant that sincerely!! i am very impressed. it's not many p-m.s who can or would tell the chinese (in mandarin) that they have a few human rights issues! You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet. *If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show? well, don't ask me! i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever loved in the first instance g kylie |
#58
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Large scale permaculture
"0tterbot" wrote in message
Charlie wrote in message What? He's sucking up to the new big money since our economy is going down the shitter? What a louse. :-) no, i meant that sincerely!! i am very impressed. it's not many p-m.s who can or would tell the chinese (in mandarin) that they have a few human rights issues! I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses and start doing something. Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet. You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet. The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she certainly has baggage. *If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show? i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever loved in the first instance g :-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look beyond his borders. It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady mix. I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we travel a lot. |
#59
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Large scale permaculture
Love Kevin,
Love his approach, but lets face it. You cant change course overnight re change of government. It seemed to me that the Libs were acting as if they knew what was around the corner before they lost the plot. With pipelines being blown up, English oil workers on strike, they have all the excuses to have every ones budgets blow sky high. Better be careful in investing, except locally. French Truffles look like a good market to be in... Weather had better shape up this season. We will all be in trouble. Seems like the government knows this, and so restricting what supermarkets are doing to farmers prices. And about time too.... Re human right issues, we may have a few locally too, with our natives. Thats the pommy influence of past generations. Lets get it right this time. FarmI wrote: "0tterbot" wrote in message Charlie wrote in message What? He's sucking up to the new big money since our economy is going down the shitter? What a louse. :-) no, i meant that sincerely!! i am very impressed. it's not many p-m.s who can or would tell the chinese (in mandarin) that they have a few human rights issues! I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses and start doing something. Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet. You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet. The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she certainly has baggage. *If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show? i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever loved in the first instance g :-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look beyond his borders. It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady mix. I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we travel a lot. |
#60
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Large scale permaculture
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
... I agree that seeing him talking directly to the Chinese was very impressive. I dont think too many world leaders would have the range of languages that he does. But I do think they have to get off their arses and start doing something. Since they've taken over the role as the Government, they've probably only sat for about 4 weeks. Not enough to do a bloody thing of use, yet. well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-) i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts, so what can one do? in the meantime, i love the way they are going through like a dose of salts. we NEEDED it! also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul. something should be done..! but i can forgive a bad tie in someone who i sincerely believe is all set to do the right things, not awful things like ahem did. You're right. I am not sure about obama, as far as his policies are concerned, but, damn, the boy has charisma and is fast on his feet. The trouble with 'charismatic' leaders is that the instant people see through the 'charisma', they drop like a ton of lead. I'm not yet convinced that Obama has anything of substance. Hillary does, but she certainly has baggage. all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent. *If* things were to go as he portarys, perhaps you all would love us again. But one must always ask, who really controls the show? i also think yanks have an over-inflated idea of how much they were ever loved in the first instance g :-)) It does tend to come as a surprise to many Americans that they aren't universally loved, but I do think that Charlie might be an exception to that grouping as he seems to have made an effort to look beyond his borders. charlie is noice. :-) having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many ways. that seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling. i think some chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests when it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken personally. It's not so difficult to understand such a mind set if you think of us having 300 million people on our continent - imagine trying to keep up with current affairs within the nation in that circumstance, let alone trying to know what is going on in the rest of the world. Add to that being the most powerful nation on earth and it must be a bit of a heady mix. I've always thought that we were extraordinarily lucky to be where we are and what we are. We're a piddling little, unimportant nation stuck at what other nations see as being the bottom of the world, but that works to our benefit. We take in news and media from all sorts of nations and because we all feel that we are isolated, we travel, and for our size, we travel a lot. i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary. kylie |
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