My zuccs have BER! As I understand it the problem is due to deficiency of
calcium in the plant which can be brought about by uneven water availability
or lack of calcium in the soil. Well my zuccs have not been watered
unevenly, they have neither been saturated not allowed to wilt and they are
well mulched. The soil has been amended with lime and gypsum. They are
growing strongly with a multitude of flowers and fruit setting. One odd
thing is that normally this strikes on the fruit when they are quite small
but this time they are getting nearly to cutting size before it starts. As
a short term thing I am cutting them early which makes for nice tasty fruit
but a small harvest.

Any ideas from experience?

Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens, in particular
how uneven watering results in a mineral problem?

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

My zuccs have BER! As I understand it the problem is due to deficiency of
calcium in the plant which can be brought about by uneven water availability
or lack of calcium in the soil. Well my zuccs have not been watered
unevenly, they have neither been saturated not allowed to wilt and they are
well mulched. The soil has been amended with lime and gypsum. They are
growing strongly with a multitude of flowers and fruit setting. One odd
thing is that normally this strikes on the fruit when they are quite small
but this time they are getting nearly to cutting size before it starts. As
a short term thing I am cutting them early which makes for nice tasty fruit
but a small harvest.

Any ideas from experience?

Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens, in particular
how uneven watering results in a mineral problem?

David


http://urbanext.illinois.edu/search/...13441887324743
351507%3Afnavtnakbe4&q=blossom+end+rot&sa=Search&c of=FORID%3A11&siteurl=u
rbanext.illinois.edu%2Fhortanswers%2Fdefault.cfm

From above URL 4th hit down

"When the soil moisture experiences wide swigs in moisture (wet to dry)
that is when the plant has a hard time picking up calcium. To prevent
this condition you need to water so soil moistures stay fairly constant
or better yet use some type of mulch over the bed to even out soil
moisture levels. This is the best way to prevent blossom end rot. "

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
My zuccs have BER!

snip

Any ideas from experience?

Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens, in particular
how uneven watering results in a mineral problem?

David

You may have a polllination problem David
I have had similar problems over several years with zucchini, pumpkins and
melons.
Basically a lack of bees to do the pollination
We have gone from a situation of bees everywhere down to severely limited
numbers
(Not sure of the cause; possibly insecticides, but not sure.)
This has meant hand pollination of the female flowers
Others in our locality have the same problem.

An extract from this URL may be appropriate:
http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf40740300.tip.html#81945718

" Zucchini Rotting on the Vine
This is a common problem in climates where there are not enough bees to
pollinate the plants. You may have the zucchini in an area where the bees
don't bother with it. When the flowers are not cross-pollinated, the
zucchini grows but rots at about 4-5 inches long. If you can, take a Q-tip
and rub some pollen from one flower to the next when they first open up. Do
this several times and the zucchini should then grow properly! (06/30/2006)
"

HTH
anm

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
My zuccs have BER! As I understand it the problem is due to deficiency of
calcium in the plant which can be brought about by uneven water
availability or lack of calcium in the soil. Well my zuccs have not
been watered unevenly, they have neither been saturated not allowed to
wilt and they are well mulched. The soil has been amended with lime and
gypsum.

Could there be a problem with water penetration due to the mulch? I know I
have to be quite careful of mulch on our low pressure, gravity fed, country
water supply and fluff the mulch every now and then or otherwise the
watering isnt' even.

anm wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
My zuccs have BER!

snip

Any ideas from experience?

Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens, in
particular how uneven watering results in a mineral problem?

David

You may have a polllination problem David
I have had similar problems over several years with zucchini,
pumpkins and melons.
Basically a lack of bees to do the pollination
We have gone from a situation of bees everywhere down to severely
limited numbers

I have plenty of bees, I see them every day, right now they are working on
the brassicas and other veges that have gone to seed next to the zuccs. I
usually have plenty of mature pumpkins and other bee pollinated crops
although the pumpkins are not flowering yet. This seems at first face to
not be the answer.

(Not sure of the cause; possibly insecticides, but not sure.)
This has meant hand pollination of the female flowers
Others in our locality have the same problem.

An extract from this URL may be appropriate:
http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf40740300.tip.html#81945718

" Zucchini Rotting on the Vine
This is a common problem in climates where there are not enough bees
to pollinate the plants. You may have the zucchini in an area where
the bees don't bother with it. When the flowers are not
cross-pollinated, the zucchini grows but rots at about 4-5 inches
long. If you can, take a Q-tip and rub some pollen from one flower to
the next when they first open up. Do this several times and the
zucchini should then grow properly! (06/30/2006) "

HTH
anm

Well in the interests of science I am going to give this a try. I will
report on the results. Thanks

David

FarmI wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
My zuccs have BER! As I understand it the problem is due to
deficiency of calcium in the plant which can be brought about by
uneven water availability or lack of calcium in the soil. Well my
zuccs have not been watered unevenly, they have neither been
saturated not allowed to wilt and they are well mulched. The soil
has been amended with lime and gypsum.

Could there be a problem with water penetration due to the mulch? I
know I have to be quite careful of mulch on our low pressure, gravity
fed, country water supply and fluff the mulch every now and then or
otherwise the watering isnt' even.

I don't think so, the zuccs and other stuff in that bed are growing quickly
and not wilting on hot days so I reckon the water is good. But I will
insert the diagnostic finger more often to be sure. Thanks.

David

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

"My zuccs have BER!"

"As I understand it the problem is due to deficiency of
calcium in the plant which can be brought about by uneven water availability
or lack of calcium in the soil.".

Absent more specifics, I believe that is more SWAG than fact.

Consider the chemical distribution of Ca w/in the plant.
Most likely your plant's available calcium is being diverted from the fruit
& going to the leaves where it is needed more at that particular time, say
for transpiration.

Ca is not a mobile nutrient, i.e. going where it is best needed. If BER
occurs when temps are high, try slowing the plant's transpiration rate to
get a better Ca distribution. Note, even if you have adequate soil Ca, its
uptake can be limited by other factors such as listed in the Spectrum
Analytic article* below . If BER is a constant problem, try the
preventive measure outlined in the ISHS abstract ** below.

The soil has been amended with lime and gypsum.
They are growing strongly with a multitude of flowers and fruit setting.
One odd thing is that normally this strikes on the fruit when they are
quite small but this time they are getting nearly to cutting size before
it starts.

I'm curious; did a soil analysis/test indicate you needed the lime and
gypsum or is this just a gardening "best practice" method?

If you care to share; what type is your soil, pH, amendment regime,
fert/schedule, etc.?

"Any ideas from experience?"

"Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens..."

Try these:

* http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/supp.../Ca_Basics.htm

** http://www.actahort.org/members/show...knrarnr=145_23

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ww87lw2086rj3v71/

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/44/2/509

General reads on BER:
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/ho...ossom-rot.html

http://wihort.uwex.edu/fruitveggies/TomatoDisorders.htm

gunner wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

"My zuccs have BER!"

"As I understand it the problem is due to deficiency of
calcium in the plant which can be brought about by uneven water
availability or lack of calcium in the soil.".

Absent more specifics, I believe that is more SWAG than fact.

Consider the chemical distribution of Ca w/in the plant.
Most likely your plant's available calcium is being diverted from the
fruit & going to the leaves where it is needed more at that
particular time, say for transpiration.


I am beginning to suspect that this is the case. We have had a rather warm
spring and these plants are putting on growth at a high rate.

Ca is not a mobile nutrient, i.e. going where it is best needed. If
BER occurs when temps are high, try slowing the plant's transpiration
rate to get a better Ca distribution. Note, even if you have
adequate soil Ca, its uptake can be limited by other factors such as
listed in the Spectrum Analytic article* below . If BER is a
constant problem, try the preventive measure outlined in the ISHS abstract
** below.

The soil has been amended with lime and gypsum.
They are growing strongly with a multitude of flowers and fruit
setting. One odd thing is that normally this strikes on the fruit
when they are quite small but this time they are getting nearly to
cutting size before it starts.

I'm curious; did a soil analysis/test indicate you needed the lime and
gypsum or is this just a gardening "best practice" method?


I have not had a soil analysis done as I don't see the need. I grow a very
wide range of fruits and veges quite successfully and I see no signs of
consistent problems which would lead me think the soil has deficiencies. I
have done pH tests myself using a dye indicator system which I believe to be
reliable and accurate enough for the purpose.

If you care to share; what type is your soil, pH, amendment regime,
fert/schedule, etc.?


The soil profile is about 20cm of nearly black silt over plastic smectite
clay (which I don't disturb). The silt is somewhat friable but has quite a
bit of clay and without amendment still clumps together to a degree when
wet. The starting pH is 5.5 and I have been bringing it up over time with
lime, it is about 6 to 6.5 now so I don't add lime as a rule now. When I
established the plot 4 years ago I added gypsum to help break up the clay.
I add chicken litter, horse manure, a touch of soluble potash and compost
every year and mulch with hay which gets incorporated. I add a seaweed
extract every two years. The citrus get a soluble trace element mix when
they need it. - about every three years.

The result is after 4 years the vege plot is much more friable and now has a
good infiltration rate, for a clay-based soil it is very good. Given the
clay and organic matter in the soil the TEC (and CEC) would be quite high
but I haven't measured it. I see no signs of nutrient runoff downhill.
There is no limestone or sodised soil around the area and the river water I
use to irrigate has an EC which varies with rainfall but is typically around
200-300 microsiemens/m. I use raised beds which gives drainage and about
40cm of depth.

The average annual rainfall is about 1100mm but the fall is extremely
erratic which is a potential problem. We have not had prolonged rain since
the summer veges were planted. However, the clay subsoil acts a sponge
soaking up water during rain and the releasing it in between times, to
illustrate, it is two months since we had significant rain, and five weeks
since anything useful in the rain gauge at all and in the last month we have
had record temperatures for the month up to 41C. Yet my pasture is green and
growing very strongly without irrigation. I have been monitoring the veges
and fruit trees and irrigating them as required.

So to summarise, I see no cause for calcium problems except the zuccs are
growing too fast for their own good.

"Any ideas from experience?"

"Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens..."

Try these:

* http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/supp.../Ca_Basics.htm

** http://www.actahort.org/members/show...knrarnr=145_23

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ww87lw2086rj3v71/

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/44/2/509

General reads on BER:
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/ho...ossom-rot.html

http://wihort.uwex.edu/fruitveggies/TomatoDisorders.htm

thanks for the refs

David

On 3/12/2009 9:40 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
gunner wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message

"My zuccs have BER!"

"As I understand it the problem is due to deficiency of
calcium in the plant which can be brought about by uneven water
availability or lack of calcium in the soil.".

Absent more specifics, I believe that is more SWAG than fact.

Consider the chemical distribution of Ca w/in the plant.
Most likely your plant's available calcium is being diverted from the
fruit & going to the leaves where it is needed more at that
particular time, say for transpiration.


I am beginning to suspect that this is the case. We have had a rather
warm spring and these plants are putting on growth at a high rate.

Ca is not a mobile nutrient, i.e. going where it is best needed. If
BER occurs when temps are high, try slowing the plant's transpiration
rate to get a better Ca distribution. Note, even if you have
adequate soil Ca, its uptake can be limited by other factors such as
listed in the Spectrum Analytic article* below . If BER is a
constant problem, try the preventive measure outlined in the ISHS
abstract ** below.

The soil has been amended with lime and gypsum.
They are growing strongly with a multitude of flowers and fruit
setting. One odd thing is that normally this strikes on the fruit
when they are quite small but this time they are getting nearly to
cutting size before it starts.

I'm curious; did a soil analysis/test indicate you needed the lime and
gypsum or is this just a gardening "best practice" method?


I have not had a soil analysis done as I don't see the need. I grow a
very wide range of fruits and veges quite successfully and I see no
signs of consistent problems which would lead me think the soil has
deficiencies. I have done pH tests myself using a dye indicator system
which I believe to be reliable and accurate enough for the purpose.

If you care to share; what type is your soil, pH, amendment regime,
fert/schedule, etc.?


The soil profile is about 20cm of nearly black silt over plastic
smectite clay (which I don't disturb). The silt is somewhat friable but
has quite a bit of clay and without amendment still clumps together to a
degree when wet. The starting pH is 5.5 and I have been bringing it up
over time with lime, it is about 6 to 6.5 now so I don't add lime as a
rule now. When I established the plot 4 years ago I added gypsum to help
break up the clay. I add chicken litter, horse manure, a touch of
soluble potash and compost every year and mulch with hay which gets
incorporated. I add a seaweed extract every two years. The citrus get a
soluble trace element mix when they need it. - about every three years.

The result is after 4 years the vege plot is much more friable and now
has a good infiltration rate, for a clay-based soil it is very good.
Given the clay and organic matter in the soil the TEC (and CEC) would be
quite high but I haven't measured it. I see no signs of nutrient runoff
downhill. There is no limestone or sodised soil around the area and the
river water I use to irrigate has an EC which varies with rainfall but
is typically around 200-300 microsiemens/m. I use raised beds which
gives drainage and about 40cm of depth.

The average annual rainfall is about 1100mm but the fall is extremely
erratic which is a potential problem. We have not had prolonged rain
since the summer veges were planted. However, the clay subsoil acts a
sponge soaking up water during rain and the releasing it in between
times, to illustrate, it is two months since we had significant rain,
and five weeks since anything useful in the rain gauge at all and in the
last month we have had record temperatures for the month up to 41C. Yet
my pasture is green and growing very strongly without irrigation. I have
been monitoring the veges and fruit trees and irrigating them as required.

So to summarise, I see no cause for calcium problems except the zuccs
are growing too fast for their own good.

"Any ideas from experience?"

"Any references to a detailed explanation of how BER happens..."

Try these:

* http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/supp.../Ca_Basics.htm

** http://www.actahort.org/members/show...knrarnr=145_23

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ww87lw2086rj3v71/

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/44/2/509

General reads on BER:
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/ho...ossom-rot.html

http://wihort.uwex.edu/fruitveggies/TomatoDisorders.htm

thanks for the refs

David
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Jonthe Fly wrote:
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Thanks. None of the listed ways that insufficient calcium would be
available seem to apply. I may just continue cutting most of them small
(zucchini flowers are very "in" you know) and leave a few to grow, or not,
and await developments.

David

On 4/12/2009 2:17 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Thanks. None of the listed ways that insufficient calcium would be
available seem to apply. I may just continue cutting most of them small
(zucchini flowers are very "in" you know) and leave a few to grow, or
not, and await developments.

David

OK a longer check off list needs to be made it seems.
No heavy winds or sudden rain after a period of drought?

Jonthe Fly wrote:
On 4/12/2009 2:17 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Thanks. None of the listed ways that insufficient calcium would be
available seem to apply. I may just continue cutting most of them
small (zucchini flowers are very "in" you know) and leave a few to
grow, or not, and await developments.

David

OK a longer check off list needs to be made it seems.
No heavy winds or sudden rain after a period of drought?

No, puzzling isn't it.

D

On 4/12/2009 10:25 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
On 4/12/2009 2:17 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Thanks. None of the listed ways that insufficient calcium would be
available seem to apply. I may just continue cutting most of them
small (zucchini flowers are very "in" you know) and leave a few to
grow, or not, and await developments.

David

OK a longer check off list needs to be made it seems.
No heavy winds or sudden rain after a period of drought?

No, puzzling isn't it.

D
As you said you had record temperatures, could it be that these have
affected pollination at that crucial time.
I have the idea planted in the back of my mind somewhere, that
pollination stops when the temperature gets too high, and it may also be
that bees stop pollinating for the same reason....They slack off on hot
days....

On 4/12/2009 10:25 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
On 4/12/2009 2:17 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Thanks. None of the listed ways that insufficient calcium would be
available seem to apply. I may just continue cutting most of them
small (zucchini flowers are very "in" you know) and leave a few to
grow, or not, and await developments.

David

OK a longer check off list needs to be made it seems.
No heavy winds or sudden rain after a period of drought?

No, puzzling isn't it.

D

I also found this, in the Net, which tends to give me the clue I was
looking for.. I suspect I'm right.

Q: I had a gardener ask me why the blossoms would suddenly fall off his
tomato plants. Can you explain that one? Also, why would cucumbers
suddenly quit blooming? (Mandan, N.D.)

A: One answer to both questions, high temperatures and a lack of
adequate moisture. While both like warm temperatures, the hot weather
we've been having and the lack of consistent rainfall will cause both
blossom abortion and non blooming. Even our zucchini plants are way down
on production this year and that's saying something!

Jonthe Fly wrote:
On 4/12/2009 10:25 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
On 4/12/2009 2:17 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Jonthe Fly wrote:
hope this helps....

http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/...t_Pest/479.pdf

Thanks. None of the listed ways that insufficient calcium would be
available seem to apply. I may just continue cutting most of them
small (zucchini flowers are very "in" you know) and leave a few to
grow, or not, and await developments.

David

OK a longer check off list needs to be made it seems.
No heavy winds or sudden rain after a period of drought?

No, puzzling isn't it.

D
As you said you had record temperatures, could it be that these have
affected pollination at that crucial time.
I have the idea planted in the back of my mind somewhere, that
pollination stops when the temperature gets too high, and it may also
be that bees stop pollinating for the same reason....They slack off
on hot days....

This is true of some species such as tomatoes but I have not heard of it
regarding marrows. That doesn't mean that it isn't so.

David