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#1
08-09-2005, 12:02 AM
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Bonsai Japanese Miniature Trees Yashiroda FS
Bonsai , Japanese Miniature Trees :- Their Style Cultivation & styling
by Kan Yashiroda Really thorough vintage manual on the craft , covers just about everything. Some headings:- Classification of shape of trunk / Classification of style of growing / Technique of dwarfing / Raisnig bonsai from seeds & cuttings / Mame bonsai /Bonsai cultivation of crysanthemums etc. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MESE%3AIT&rd=1 |
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#2
08-09-2005, 12:49 AM
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JaneyP wrote:
Bonsai , Japanese Miniature Trees :- Their Style Cultivation & styling by Kan Yashiroda Really thorough vintage manual on the craft , covers just about everything. Some headings:- Classification of shape of trunk / Classification of style of growing / Technique of dwarfing / Raisnig bonsai from seeds & cuttings / Mame bonsai /Bonsai cultivation of crysanthemums etc. This is SPAM. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#3
08-09-2005, 10:00 PM
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#5
10-09-2005, 04:51 AM
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In article ,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: God. You must be a damned lawyer. Hell, no. I just know the difference between for-sale/auction and spam. I subscribe to a bunch of newsgroups where on-topic FS/FA posts are welcome and spam is not. In a few groups where FS/FA posts aren't allowed, it says so in the group's FAQ, which is usually posted every 1-2 weeks. you are one of those really, really nice guys who bollix up their return address so one one can reply privately to you -- which I would have much preferred to do. I "bollix up my return address" precisely because I don't want private replies. If someone wants to send me a message that isn't appropriate subject matter for the newsgroup, I'm not interested in reading it. The IBC (list and news group) (and I as a member) pre-date E-bay by 10 years or more. Ever since E-bay cranked up we have had Non-regulars "drop by" to post news of the wunnerful "stuff" they have for sale, and we have at _every_ instance responded with a notice that this is not appropriate. "Every instance"? The last time anyone here objected to an FS/FA post was a year ago. Since then, there have been 5 more bonsai-related for-sale posts (not counting this latest one), none of which garnered any complaints or objections -- not publicly, anyway. Anybody who had been reading the newsgroup for those 11.5 months would have concluded that bonsai-related FS/FA posts are rare but acceptable here. (I didn't count the real spam. Spam isn't welcome anywhere, but spammers don't give a damn about rules, and they never stick around long enough to read *any* messages, much less the complaints about their own posts.) There have been a few lengthy threads here discussing the spam problem, during brief peaks in the amount of spam. But at no point in those threads did anyone ever say bonsai-related FS/FA posts are inappropriate. We have iterated and re-iterated here that we will NOT open the floodgates to every jerk and yahoo who happens to have a plant, a pot, (or a book) for sale on any one of the auction sites. Then people have gotten pretty lax about re-iterating it in the past year, since nobody ever complained about the 5 bonsai-related FS/FA posts during that time. As for "opening the floodgates", I think you're greatly overestimating the potential bonsai-related FS/FA traffic. I'm a longtime regular In another group with 4 times the traffic of this one, and which encourages on-topic FS/FA posts, but that group gets an average of less than 2 such posts per day -- hardly what I'd call a flood! If you insist that the welcome message be changed Only if you insist on enforcing a "no bonsai-related for-sale/auction posts" rule. If you want people to obey a set of rules, it's up to you to ensure that newcomers can read those rules. Waiting until they've broken a rule before telling them about it is a waste of everyone's time. Futhermore, if you ever want to complain to an ISP about one of their users breaking the rules, you'll need to be able to show that the group *does* have rules, and not just "guidelines". I've seen one case where a newsgroup's rules were posted only in something titled "Unofficial FAQ", so an ISP concluded that their user hadn't broken any *official* rules. If you do write up a set of rules for the newsgroup & mailing list, I think it ought to be presented for discussion & voting, just in case the current subscribers don't agree with whatever the consensus was years ago. (The owners of the mailing list can impose any rules they like on the list, but an unmoderated newsgroup cannot be controlled by any one person, not even the person who created it.) It'd also be nice to incorporate the rules into a properly formatted FAQ, and cross-posted to rec.answers and news.answers so that it'd be available on all the FAQ archive web sites like www.faq.org. Details on how to do it, including ways to have it auto-posted regularly, can be found at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/news-answers/guidelines/. |
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#6
10-09-2005, 02:19 PM
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Wayne C. Morris wrote:
In article , (Jim Lewis) wrote: snip you are one of those really, really nice guys who bollix up their return address so one one can reply privately to you -- which I would have much preferred to do. I "bollix up my return address" precisely because I don't want private replies. If someone wants to send me a message that isn't appropriate subject matter for the newsgroup, I'm not interested in reading it. EXACTLY what I meant. And if you hadn't done that, all this crap wouldn't have to end up in our archives -- which cost us money. The IBC (list and news group) (and I as a member) pre-date E-bay by 10 years or more. Ever since E-bay cranked up we have had Non-regulars "drop by" to post news of the wunnerful "stuff" they have for sale, and we have at _every_ instance responded with a notice that this is not appropriate. "Every instance"? Surely, if _I_ saw them. The last time anyone here objected to an FS/FA post was a year ago. Since then, there have been 5 more bonsai-related for-sale posts (not counting this latest one), none of which garnered any complaints or objections -- not publicly, anyway. Anybody who had been reading the newsgroup for those 11.5 months would have concluded that bonsai-related FS/FA posts are rare but acceptable here. You _count_ these things? My, my. (I didn't count the real spam. Spam isn't welcome anywhere, but spammers don't give a damn about rules, and they never stick around long enough to read *any* messages, much less the complaints about their own posts.) There have been a few lengthy threads here discussing the spam problem, during brief peaks in the amount of spam. But at no point in those threads did anyone ever say bonsai-related FS/FA posts are inappropriate. Probably because none of the spam was "bonsai related." As I believe I said, we may allow one-time posts by regular members who have excess "stuff" to get rid of. 99.999% of the time, they have the courtesy to ask me or Shelly (or even the list itself) BEFORE they post. Most of the time we'd say OK -- once. This person was not a regular. She was, I suspect, the owner of a bookstore (ONE book listed, and NOT a book that a dabbler would have picked up to get started in bonsai -- though it is a good book) who happened to find a bonsai book in her possession. I have had -- and discouraged -- many requests from dealers. We have iterated and re-iterated here that we will NOT open the floodgates to every jerk and yahoo who happens to have a plant, a pot, (or a book) for sale on any one of the auction sites. As for "opening the floodgates", I think you're greatly overestimating the potential bonsai-related FS/FA traffic. I'm a longtime regular In another group with 4 times the traffic of this one, and which encourages on-topic FS/FA posts, but that group gets an average of less than 2 such posts per day -- hardly what I'd call a flood! Scarcely relevant, but . . . If you insist that the welcome message be changed Only if you insist on enforcing a "no bonsai-related for-sale/auction posts" rule. If you want people to obey a set of rules, it's up to you to ensure that newcomers can read those rules. Waiting until they've broken a rule before telling them about it is a waste of everyone's time. Good point. Futhermore, if you ever want to complain to an ISP about one of their users breaking the rules, you'll need to be able to show that the group *does* have rules, and not just "guidelines". I've seen one case where a newsgroup's rules were posted only in something titled "Unofficial FAQ", so an ISP concluded that their user hadn't broken any *official* rules. It's not that important to natter to an ISP on this kind of issue. MOST people like this one stop when asked. Real spammers don't (and usually bollix up THEIR addresses, too, so it's not worth backtracking. If you do write up a set of rules for the newsgroup & mailing list, I think it ought to be presented for discussion & voting, just in case the current subscribers don't agree with whatever the consensus was years ago. (The owners of the mailing list can impose any rules they like on the list, but an unmoderated newsgroup cannot be controlled by any one person, not even the person who created it.) Well, in a way, we can since RAB gets the mailing list posts SOLELY because we decided that would be a good thing to do. It'd also be nice to incorporate the rules into a properly formatted FAQ, and cross-posted to rec.answers and news.answers so that it'd be available on all the FAQ archive web sites like www.faq.org. Details on how to do it, including ways to have it auto-posted regularly, can be found at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/news-answers/guidelines/. Not worth it. Usenet and mailing lists' days are numbered -- much as I dislike the thought. Jim Lewis - - Who has said what he has to say on this. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#7
12-09-2005, 02:00 AM
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Hi folks,
I would really like this discussion to END NOW. Wayne - We DO have rules. that's a period I don't feel the need to post them every two weeks. Right now, I don't even know what you posted that got this reply, but the "Group" knows our rules. I see below you think a -vote- on rules is in order. IT ISN'T. Don't like the rules, okay, don't bother us. Regards Shelly Hurd - List Owner. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne C. Morris" To: Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:51 PM Subject: [IBC] SPAM SPAM SPAM Bonsai Japanese Miniature Trees Yashiroda FS In article , (Jim Lewis) wrote: God. You must be a damned lawyer. Hell, no. I just know the difference between for-sale/auction and spam. I subscribe to a bunch of newsgroups where on-topic FS/FA posts are welcome and spam is not. In a few groups where FS/FA posts aren't allowed, it says so in the group's FAQ, which is usually posted every 1-2 weeks. you are one of those really, really nice guys who bollix up their return address so one one can reply privately to you -- which I would have much preferred to do. I "bollix up my return address" precisely because I don't want private replies. If someone wants to send me a message that isn't appropriate subject matter for the newsgroup, I'm not interested in reading it. The IBC (list and news group) (and I as a member) pre-date E-bay by 10 years or more. Ever since E-bay cranked up we have had Non-regulars "drop by" to post news of the wunnerful "stuff" they have for sale, and we have at _every_ instance responded with a notice that this is not appropriate. "Every instance"? The last time anyone here objected to an FS/FA post was a year ago. Since then, there have been 5 more bonsai-related for-sale posts (not counting this latest one), none of which garnered any complaints or objections -- not publicly, anyway. Anybody who had been reading the newsgroup for those 11.5 months would have concluded that bonsai-related FS/FA posts are rare but acceptable here. (I didn't count the real spam. Spam isn't welcome anywhere, but spammers don't give a damn about rules, and they never stick around long enough to read *any* messages, much less the complaints about their own posts.) There have been a few lengthy threads here discussing the spam problem, during brief peaks in the amount of spam. But at no point in those threads did anyone ever say bonsai-related FS/FA posts are inappropriate. We have iterated and re-iterated here that we will NOT open the floodgates to every jerk and yahoo who happens to have a plant, a pot, (or a book) for sale on any one of the auction sites. Then people have gotten pretty lax about re-iterating it in the past year, since nobody ever complained about the 5 bonsai-related FS/FA posts during that time. As for "opening the floodgates", I think you're greatly overestimating the potential bonsai-related FS/FA traffic. I'm a longtime regular In another group with 4 times the traffic of this one, and which encourages on-topic FS/FA posts, but that group gets an average of less than 2 such posts per day -- hardly what I'd call a flood! If you insist that the welcome message be changed Only if you insist on enforcing a "no bonsai-related for-sale/auction posts" rule. If you want people to obey a set of rules, it's up to you to ensure that newcomers can read those rules. Waiting until they've broken a rule before telling them about it is a waste of everyone's time. Futhermore, if you ever want to complain to an ISP about one of their users breaking the rules, you'll need to be able to show that the group *does* have rules, and not just "guidelines". I've seen one case where a newsgroup's rules were posted only in something titled "Unofficial FAQ", so an ISP concluded that their user hadn't broken any *official* rules. If you do write up a set of rules for the newsgroup & mailing list, I think it ought to be presented for discussion & voting, just in case the current subscribers don't agree with whatever the consensus was years ago. (The owners of the mailing list can impose any rules they like on the list, but an unmoderated newsgroup cannot be controlled by any one person, not even the person who created it.) It'd also be nice to incorporate the rules into a properly formatted FAQ, and cross-posted to rec.answers and news.answers so that it'd be available on all the FAQ archive web sites like www.faq.org. Details on how to do it, including ways to have it auto-posted regularly, can be found at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/news-answers/guidelines/. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#8
12-09-2005, 02:06 AM
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Wayne,
Now I've looked and see what caused this. It is SPAM. It's Spam because members to the list have the courtesy to ask ME if I mind a particular post offering items for sale. Besides that, it's obvious. If you have a problem with MY opinion, post direct to me. My address is at least real. Regards, Shelly Hurd - List Owner. ----- Original Message ----- Subject: [IBC] SPAM SPAM SPAM Bonsai Japanese Miniature Trees Yashiroda FS JaneyP wrote: Bonsai , Japanese Miniature Trees :- Their Style Cultivation & styling by Kan Yashiroda Really thorough vintage manual on the craft , covers just about everything. Some headings:- Classification of shape of trunk / Classification of style of growing / Technique of dwarfing / Raisnig bonsai from seeds & cuttings / Mame bonsai /Bonsai cultivation of crysanthemums etc. This is SPAM. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#9
12-09-2005, 05:19 AM
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Shelly: Wayne was not the originator of the spam. He just had
some legitimate questions about the way it was handled and about what the rules are and whether they were being enforced equally or randomly. Wayne posed logical questions and was called names (directly "lawyer" and indirectly "jerk and yahoo") and had his integrity questioned for doing so. Of course, not all of Wayne's suggestions are practical, but I think they should have been accorded the same respect that any of us would hope to be shown when we participate here. Frankly, I think we would have probably been spared all this exchange, if Jim had just contacted the sender and/or blocked them from the list rather than sending his urgent SPAM SPAM SPAM response which only drew more attention to it. But that's all 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking! By the way, I fully agree that people should accord the courtesy of giving a legitimate address, but I also understand that others will have divergent opinions on this for whatever reasons. C'est la guerre! Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: I Shelly Hurd Hi folks, I would really like this discussion to END NOW. Wayne - We DO have rules. that's a period I don't feel the need to post them every two weeks. Right now, I don't even know what you posted that got this reply, but the "Group" knows our rules. I see below you think a -vote- on rules is in order. IT ISN'T. Don't like the rules, okay, don't bother us. Regards Shelly Hurd - List Owner. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne C. Morris" In article , (Jim Lewis) wrote: God. You must be a damned lawyer. Hell, no. I just know the difference between for-sale/auction and spam. I subscribe to a bunch of newsgroups where on-topic FS/FA posts are welcome and spam is not. In a few groups where FS/FA posts aren't allowed, it says so in the group's FAQ, which is usually posted every 1-2 weeks. you are one of those really, really nice guys who bollix up their return address so one one can reply privately to you -- which I would have much preferred to do. I "bollix up my return address" precisely because I don't want private replies. If someone wants to send me a message that isn't appropriate subject matter for the newsgroup, I'm not interested in reading it. The IBC (list and news group) (and I as a member) pre-date E-bay by 10 years or more. Ever since E-bay cranked up we have had Non-regulars "drop by" to post news of the wunnerful "stuff" they have for sale, and we have at _every_ instance responded with a notice that this is not appropriate. "Every instance"? The last time anyone here objected to an FS/FA post was a year ago. Since then, there have been 5 more bonsai-related for-sale posts (not counting this latest one), none of which garnered any complaints or objections -- not publicly, anyway. Anybody who had been reading the newsgroup for those 11.5 months would have concluded that bonsai-related FS/FA posts are rare but acceptable here. (I didn't count the real spam. Spam isn't welcome anywhere, but spammers don't give a damn about rules, and they never stick around long enough to read *any* messages, much less the complaints about their own posts.) There have been a few lengthy threads here discussing the spam problem, during brief peaks in the amount of spam. But at no point in those threads did anyone ever say bonsai-related FS/FA posts are inappropriate. We have iterated and re-iterated here that we will NOT open the floodgates to every jerk and yahoo who happens to have a plant, a pot, (or a book) for sale on any one of the auction sites. Then people have gotten pretty lax about re-iterating it in the past year, since nobody ever complained about the 5 bonsai-related FS/FA posts during that time. As for "opening the floodgates", I think you're greatly overestimating the potential bonsai-related FS/FA traffic. I'm a longtime regular In another group with 4 times the traffic of this one, and which encourages on-topic FS/FA posts, but that group gets an average of less than 2 such posts per day -- hardly what I'd call a flood! If you insist that the welcome message be changed Only if you insist on enforcing a "no bonsai-related for-sale/auction posts" rule. If you want people to obey a set of rules, it's up to you to ensure that newcomers can read those rules. Waiting until they've broken a rule before telling them about it is a waste of everyone's time. Futhermore, if you ever want to complain to an ISP about one of their users breaking the rules, you'll need to be able to show that the group *does* have rules, and not just "guidelines". I've seen one case where a newsgroup's rules were posted only in something titled "Unofficial FAQ", so an ISP concluded that their user hadn't broken any *official* rules. If you do write up a set of rules for the newsgroup & mailing list, I think it ought to be presented for discussion & voting, just in case the current subscribers don't agree with whatever the consensus was years ago. (The owners of the mailing list can impose any rules they like on the list, but an unmoderated newsgroup cannot be controlled by any one person, not even the person who created it.) It'd also be nice to incorporate the rules into a properly formatted FAQ, and cross-posted to rec.answers and news.answers so that it'd be available on all the FAQ archive web sites like www.faq.org. Details on how to do it, including ways to have it auto-posted regularly, can be found at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/news-answers/guidelines/. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Bob Pastorio++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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