Hi Justin.

Thanks for your post. We all get worked-up about our enthusiasm for bonsai, and what we see through it. Andy's post was insightful if you choose not to look at it as a personal attack. You were so engaged in your enthusiasm that it awoke many on the fo
rum-- me included. That is NOT bad-- I think it is great!

Some people are admirable on the IBC for answering the simplest questions untold times with apparent enthusiasm. I really admire them while the repetition after about 40 replies is not so great, but it is necessary. I'd rather see your unvarnished persp
ective & replies to it.

You've encouraged me to post something I was going to hold. Members of the list are mostly tolerant & interested in diverse opinion and sincerity, Justin--including Andy. I drafted the post yesterday & decided to sit on it because it was controversial
and potentially deprecating to someone who doesn't agree. Your view is not mine, but I wasn't offended. I'm glad you shared your view & learned from it. I hope the topic is not exhaused.

--------------------
On a asking a different question:

Yesterday's (Sunday) paper had an interesting article in its Everyday Ethics column by Randy Cohen entitled "Altered work of art can't be misrepresented." He referenced federal law making the distinction between art and ordinary property, "to prevent any
destruction of a work of recognized stature." He notes Section 106A of the Copyright Act (a.k.a., the Virtual Artists Rights Act) empowers an artist "to prevent the use of his or her name as the author of a work of visual art in the event of a distortion,
mutilation or other modification of the work which would be prejudicial to his or her honor or reputation." He summarizes: "some laws guard the arts and some guard the reputation of the artist. Ethics also demands the protection of truly worthy art and
an honest account of what the artist actually did."

Good summary-- especially considering its legal source ...JUST KIDDING re' the source.... :-)

Mr. Cohen's concluding paragraph notes that if a specific work has no particular aesthetic merit, owners can do whatever they want with it as long as they don't misrepresent who did what. What about the bonsai with aesthetic merit that is not of recogniz
ed stature? That seems to cover a wide band of enriching but untapped work.

My reading of this is that a bonsai would need to be a work of recognized stature to be protected for-itself as a work-of-art legally. The artist, however, is protected from being misrepresented at a much lower standard if his or her work (purported to be
visual art) is misrepresented. Goshin & the Yamaki Pine at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum are works of art by recognized stature-- the Yamaki Pine's stature rises greatly from its history as well as its form in creating emotion. Standing alone
without recognition by others, they would be questionable candidates as art, IMO.

Establishing objects as art requires that they become part of a discursive network-- a network which leads to appreciation of certain qualities over others. I don't see the discursive network which is art as a conspiracy to force appreciation of certain
works over others or to subjugate craft or pastime endeavors. They are not mutually exclusive-- a work of recognized stature may or may not be good craftwork and can be created by an artfully-engaged professional or an amateur with little or no intention
of entering the network of art evaluation. Since the second quarter of the 20th century (and arguably much earlier) art often questions the discourse (and especially meta-narratives of "what art is?") and questions the confines of cultural exchange.

Bonsai 'artistry' is a moving target regarding what is valued. Japanese bonsai exhibited immediately prior to World War II suggest the postwar concept of "representative Japanese bonsai" changed radically with decreased availability of wild material. The
discourse on bonsai continues to change as well as its forms.

Bonsai enthusiasts are not necessarily creating art. Those who contribute to aesthetic understanding through their bonsai production-- sometimes based on factors quite apart from their craft competence-- will own art. Artists, even those who have consu
mmate skill but fail to enter discussion, will not own art until they are recognized.

The Internet Bonsai Club is an artifact, too, and changes over time yet with past traces. Today's subject (on any day) is its most revealing because the topic is only open at those areas. If someone chooses to act by initiation or responding publicly or
privately they are engaging in discussion that likely has extremely modest effects.

On creativity in bonsai as in other arts, I'm not very convinced that visual form matters so much as resonance of the object for the viewer. The poet Soji (mid 14th century) had a favorite incense burner later owned by the teamaster Rikyu (later 16th cen
tury). Rikyu's wife noted that the legs were too long. Rikyu agreed and he cut them down immediately. This was a classical art object-- the Goshin (the presently revered bonsai) of its day. When Rikyu made the decision (not your average Joe), the burne
r's value rose for him & for his wife... and it rose for others as having a creative alteration chosen by tastefulness.

Who among present bonsai enthusiasts would alter Naka's Goshin? Perhaps John is THE Head Knocker. Lots of folks want to second-guess Walter Pall's Bear on the IBC Gallery while he is among the most recognized talents in the bonsai community and tells us
his effort is sincere. Some think he is teasing, I suppose, but I think most believe this is Walter's taste. It could easily grow to be more appreciated than taste for "Japanese classical bonsai" and there are signs of much interest in bonsai revealing
Walter's taste.

Alteration of a bonsai is a legal issue, but perhaps not always so clearly an aesthetic one of art ownership if creativity is the measure.

Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA


----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Diaz"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:07 PM
Subject: [IBC] Maybe we should ask a different question.


I would like to apologize for this debate getting as far as it did, and as
away from it's point as it has come. ...BIG SNIP...

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