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[IBC] Altered work of art
From: Roger Snipes
Chris, Your post regarding the alteration of a work of art brings to mind a discussion that took place on the list a few years ago. Someone asked if once a bonsai, Goshin for example, became part of a public collection does the curator have an obligation to maintain the original artist's design and direction, or is he free to change it at will? Some felt that the curator should maintain the tree as designed, while others felt it could be changed and redesigned as the curator saw fit. Personally I feel that the curator of a collection has an obligation to keep to the original artist's design. After all, what would be the point of having a composition like Goshin in a public collection, and then redesigning it to suit someone else's artistic vision? (Obviously, a living work of art will need constant maintenance, but the original design intent can be maintained.) One might compare that to doing a major repaint on the Mona Lisa to improve the painting. :-) Hi Roger, I am glad to see you pick this up, and I do recall some of the past posts, as you did. Chris has had experience in close quarters with these situations, so I am curious how it may look to him, and what he knows of it. There is a lot in the arts of changes from the original, each time a necessary or a natural part of the whole, so I really wonder how Bonsai stacks up with it. I mean changes such as in plays where the playwriter's words stay exact, but the action of a character can make them imply different content. Still, it holds together. Same in music, the quality of the original might alter from orchestra to orchestra. I am not sure of that, but I think it is happening. There are renovations of old paintings that are on the second renovation with more advanced techniques found to be "less" than the original and then claimed to be returned to their original more closely, some of those recently. I am inclined to think paintings or photographs would be harder to withstand some alteration for any reason other than loss of some original part altogether. Somehow someone must have had a reasonable solution for bonsai, since it could be that a restyle was necessary in some instances. Lynn Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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[IBC] Altered work of art
The original Lars Anderson collection at the Arnold Arboretum are some of the
first bonsai in the US. There is a booklet they published about the collection, in which they explained that they have maintained most of the trees in their original styles, as much as possible. However, there were a few that they were forced to restyle, for various technical reasons. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
#4
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[IBC] Altered work of art
Good Day to All,
regarding Bonsai/Tree Penjing and the changes that naturally occur with the passing of time,I tend to work more with the idea of working towards a design,then letting the tree/s free grow for a few years [this I base on Horticultural health] and starting anew. In the earlier issues of Bonsai Today I saw enough Kimura make overs to be convinced that Bonsai/Tree Penjing are essentially phoenixlike in nature. I think that -living sculpture- requires a different type of thinking and a new set of guidelines.So it's easy for me to divorce the rules for say marble as sculpture or oil painting or vitreous enamels from trees. This is where the change or newness of concept starts. A perfectly designed Bonsai/Tree Penjing can only exist for me as a holograph [digital image with today's present technology]. Khaimraj [West Indies/Caribbean] -----Original Message----- From: Roger Snipes To: Date: 13 October 2003 19:29 Subject: [IBC] Altered work of art Chris, Your post regarding the alteration of a work of art brings to mind a discussion that took place on the list a few years ago. Someone asked if once a bonsai, Goshin for example, became part of a public collection does the curator have an obligation to maintain the original artist's design and direction, or is he free to change it at will? Some felt that the curator should maintain the tree as designed, while others felt it could be changed and redesigned as the curator saw fit. Personally I feel that the curator of a collection has an obligation to keep to the original artist's design. After all, what would be the point of having a composition like Goshin in a public collection, and then redesigning it to suit someone else's artistic vision? (Obviously, a living work of art will need constant maintenance, but the original design intent can be maintained.) One might compare that to doing a major repaint on the Mona Lisa to improve the painting. :-) Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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[IBC] Altered work of art
Roger I missed that discussion about altering Goshin for instance.
What we all seem to forget in the discussion on art yes or no is the fact that bonsai is a living piece of nature put in a container by us. As the late Hideo Kato use to say :"the moment you put a tree in a container you are responsible for it". So this means that we first and for all should respect it as a living beiing and it natuarally changes through the years. Art or no art if the curator responsible for Goshin wants to maintain Goshin the way it is intended by the creator (in my opinion the correct way ,also a matter of respect however now for the creator ). As history of some old Japanese masterpieces learns us this can only be done for a couple of decades if correctly cared for the bonsai (as it stays vigorous and grows on and on and pruning cannot maintain the original shape after that period give or take a decade).Than inevitably restyling will be neccesary ( isn't that also one of the interesting things in bonsai? that it's never definately finished?).At that moment the respect for the original creator is less important than respect for the tree and try to make it as beautifully as possible without harming it's condition. So if it's art or not is not that important because whether we like it or not it is only temporarely; in the most positive situation a works of art changes in a new works of art. Greetz Ab Demmendal the Netherlands "Roger Snipes" schreef in bericht news:00de01c391fa$ebb8e380$fad3ffd8@46ndp01... Chris, Your post regarding the alteration of a work of art brings to mind a discussion that took place on the list a few years ago. Someone asked if once a bonsai, Goshin for example, became part of a public collection does the curator have an obligation to maintain the original artist's design and direction, or is he free to change it at will? Some felt that the curator should maintain the tree as designed, while others felt it could be changed and redesigned as the curator saw fit. Personally I feel that the curator of a collection has an obligation to keep to the original artist's design. After all, what would be the point of having a composition like Goshin in a public collection, and then redesigning it to suit someone else's artistic vision? (Obviously, a living work of art will need constant maintenance, but the original design intent can be maintained.) One might compare that to doing a major repaint on the Mona Lisa to improve the painting. :-) Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Cochrane" Yesterday's (Sunday) paper had an interesting article in its Everyday Ethics column by Randy Cohen entitled "Altered work of art can't be misrepresented." He referenced federal law making the distinction between art and ordinary property, "to prevent any destruction of a work of recognized stature." He notes Section 106A of the Copyright Act (a.k.a., the Virtual Artists Rights Act) empowers an artist "to prevent the use of his or her name as the author of a work of visual art in the event of a distortion, mutilation or other modification of the work which would be prejudicial to his or her honor or reputation." He summarizes: "some laws guard the arts and some guard the reputation of the artist. Ethics also demands the protection of truly worthy art and an honest account of what the artist actually did." Good summary-- especially considering its legal source ...JUST KIDDING re' the source.... :-) Mr. Cohen's concluding paragraph notes that if a specific work has no particular aesthetic merit, owners can do whatever they want with it as long as they don't misrepresent who did what. What about the bonsai with aesthetic merit that is not of recognized stature? That seems to cover a wide band of enriching but untapped work. My reading of this is that a bonsai would need to be a work of recognized stature to be protected for-itself as a work-of-art legally. The artist, however, is protected from being misrepresented at a much lower standard if his or her work (purported to be visual art) is misrepresented. Goshin & the Yamaki Pine at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum are works of art by recognized stature-- the Yamaki Pine's stature rises greatly from its history as well as its form in creating emotion. Standing alone without recognition by others, they would be questionable candidates as art, IMO. Establishing objects as art requires that they become part of a discursive network-- a network which leads to appreciation of certain qualities over others. I don't see the discursive network which is art as a conspiracy to force appreciation of certain works over others or to subjugate craft or pastime endeavors. They are not mutually exclusive-- a work of recognized stature may or may not be good craftwork and can be created by an artfully-engaged professional or an amateur with little or no intention of entering the network of art evaluation. Since the second quarter of the 20th century (and arguably much earlier) art often questions the discourse (and especially meta-narratives of "what art is?") and questions the confines of cultural exchange. Bonsai 'artistry' is a moving target regarding what is valued. Japanese bonsai exhibited immediately prior to World War II suggest the postwar concept of "representative Japanese bonsai" changed radically with decreased availability of wild material. The discourse on bonsai continues to change as well as its forms. Bonsai enthusiasts are not necessarily creating art. Those who contribute to aesthetic understanding through their bonsai production-- sometimes based on factors quite apart from their craft competence-- will own art. Artists, even those who have consummate skill but fail to enter discussion, will not own art until they are recognized. The Internet Bonsai Club is an artifact, too, and changes over time yet with past traces. Today's subject (on any day) is its most revealing because the topic is only open at those areas. If someone chooses to act by initiation or responding publicly or privately they are engaging in discussion that likely has extremely modest effects. On creativity in bonsai as in other arts, I'm not very convinced that visual form matters so much as resonance of the object for the viewer. The poet Soji (mid 14th century) had a favorite incense burner later owned by the teamaster Rikyu (later 16th century). Rikyu's wife noted that the legs were too long. Rikyu agreed and he cut them down immediately. This was a classical art object-- the Goshin (the presently revered bonsai) of its day. When Rikyu made the decision (not your average Joe), the burner's value rose for him & for his wife... and it rose for others as having a creative alteration chosen by tastefulness. Who among present bonsai enthusiasts would alter Naka's Goshin? Perhaps John is THE Head Knocker. Lots of folks want to second-guess Walter Pall's Bear on the IBC Gallery while he is among the most recognized talents in the bonsai community and tells us his effort is sincere. Some think he is teasing, I suppose, but I think most believe this is Walter's taste. It could easily grow to be more appreciated than taste for "Japanese classical bonsai" and there are signs of much interest in bonsai revealing Walter's taste. Alteration of a bonsai is a legal issue, but perhaps not always so clearly an aesthetic one of art ownership if creativity is the measure. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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[IBC] Altered work of art
Lynn,
Good observations, I hadn't really thought about plays, musical compositions, etc. that get changed and interpreted. I guess in my mind I associate bonsai more with a painting or sculpture -- something that is the same each time one looks at it, as opposed to a musical score or a play that can change with the interpretation of the performers. I know, of course, that a bonsai is anything but static and unchanging, but when a bonsai is well maintained in the original style it gives that impression to a certain extent. I realize that when a bonsai becomes part of a public collection, maintaining it in the original design may at times be difficult, especially when unforeseen events happen -- the death of a major branch for instance -- which require a restyle to deal with the results of the event. But it is my opinion that the curator should try, as much as possible, to stay with the original design. I too would be interested to hear what Chris may have to say on this. Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Boyd" There is a lot in the arts of changes from the original, each time a necessary or a natural part of the whole, so I really wonder how Bonsai stacks up with it. I mean changes such as in plays where the playwriter's words stay exact, but the action of a character can make them imply different content. Still, it holds together. Same in music, the quality of the original might alter from orchestra to orchestra. I am not sure of that, but I think it is happening. There are renovations of old paintings that are on the second renovation with more advanced techniques found to be "less" than the original and then claimed to be returned to their original more closely, some of those recently. I am inclined to think paintings or photographs would be harder to withstand some alteration for any reason other than loss of some original part altogether. Somehow someone must have had a reasonable solution for bonsai, since it could be that a restyle was necessary in some instances. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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[IBC] Altered work of art
Ab,
I think we are in agreement here. I feel that the curator of a collection should do his or her best to maintain a bonsai in the design of the artist who created it. I agree, however, that over time the design will evolve and may even need to be drastically changed, whether due to normal growth on the part of the tree, or other events that may occur. Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ab Demmendal" So this means that we first and for all should respect it as a living beiing and it natuarally changes through the years. Art or no art if the curator responsible for Goshin wants to maintain Goshin the way it is intended by the creator (in my opinion the correct way ,also a matter of respect however now for the creator ). As history of some old Japanese masterpieces learns us this can only be done for a couple of decades if correctly cared for the bonsai (as it stays vigorous and grows on and on and pruning cannot maintain the original shape after that period give or take a decade).Than inevitably restyling will be neccesary ( isn't that also one of the interesting things in bonsai? that it's never definately finished?).At that moment the respect for the original creator is less important than respect for the tree and try to make it as beautifully as possible without harming it's condition. So if it's art or not is not that important because whether we like it or not it is only temporarely; in the most positive situation a works of art changes in a new works of art. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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[IBC] Altered work of art
In a message dated 10/22/2003 11:10:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: Ab, I think we are in agreement here. I feel that the curator of a collection should do his or her best to maintain a bonsai in the design of the artist who created it. I agree, however, that over time the design will evolve and may even need to be drastically changed, whether due to normal growth on the part of the tree, or other events that may occur. Roger: I would even go one step further: there is no such thing as static bonsai art. Cordially, Michael Persiano The Michael Persiano Bonsai Studio ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
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[IBC] Altered work of art
Please pardon my late response on this thread.
For another perspective on this issue, you should read the editorial, The Kiss of Death, by Doug Roth in the current issue of the Journal of Japanese Gardening (JOJG, Sept/Oct 2003, p. 3). Mr. Roth asserts that, "Historical preservation is the kiss of death for a Japanese garden." He explains that if historic preservation is a garden owner's sole objective, it means that the owners are no longer trying to improve it and are simply trying to "preserve" it or return it to a former state. "If they truly wanted a great garden, they'd be thinking about future glory and taking actions to move in that direction." Roth notes that there is value in historic preservation, such as for architecture, but it is not usually appropriate for gardens, because of the fact that a garden is alive and in a never ending state of flux. "With skilled care a garden gets better; with poor care it deteriorates. In Japan old gardens are regularly rebuilt, repaired, and reshaped, often to improve the appearance. He derides most cases of historic preservation for living things as "an uninspired, ill-fated approach." I would submit that Roth's logic is generally persuasive when applied to bonsai as well. Just as the most skilled bonsai artists strive for excellence and hope to improve their bonsai routinely, those who manage public collections should have the flexibility to pursue the best design for a donated bonsai, just as the donor would have done. A curator should regularly consult with other bonsai artists (especially the donor artist, if possible) about design and maintenance plans for individual bonsai. (S)he should also possess a self awareness of his/her design biases and avoid making all the bonsai in the collection look like their own. Beyond that, they need to be free of rigid constraints of trying to maintain a design plan for a specific bonsai from a specific point of time. To do otherwise is unrealistic and detrimental to the health and design quality of the bonsai. Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com ==================================== Roger Snipes wrote: Ab, I think we are in agreement here. I feel that the curator of a collection should do his or her best to maintain a bonsai in the design of the artist who created it. I agree, however, that over time the design will evolve and may even need to be drastically changed, whether due to normal growth on the part of the tree, or other events that may occur. Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ab Demmendal" So this means that we first and for all should respect it as a living being and it naturally changes through the years. Art or no art if the curator responsible for Goshin wants to maintain Goshin the way it is intended by the creator (in my opinion the correct way , also a matter of respect, however now for the creator ). As history of some old Japanese masterpieces learns us this can only be done for a couple of decades if correctly cared for the bonsai (as it stays vigorous and grows on and on and pruning cannot maintain the original shape after that period give or take a decade). Then inevitably restyling will be necessary (isn't that also one of the interesting things in bonsai? that it's never definitely finished?). At that moment the respect for the original creator is less important than respect for the tree and try to make it as beautifully as possible without harming it's condition. So if it's art or not is not that important because whether we like it or not it is only temporary; in the most positive situation a works of art changes in a new works of art. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
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[IBC] Altered work of art
Huzzah! Hurrah! Hurray! Rah! Yippee! Hot diggity! Banzai!
Hoch! and Vive! ;-) Makes good sense. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - VEGETARIAN: An Indian word meaning "lousy hunter." - "Borrowed" from a sig by fellow Home-Ease listowner, Scott Peterson Please pardon my late response on this thread. For another perspective on this issue, you should read the editorial, The Kiss of Death, by Doug Roth in the current issue of the Journal of Japanese Gardening (JOJG, Sept/Oct 2003, p. 3). Mr. Roth asserts that, "Historical preservation is the kiss of death for a Japanese garden." He explains that if historic preservation is a garden owner's sole objective, it means that the owners are no longer trying to improve it and are simply trying to "preserve" it or return it to a former state. "If they truly wanted a great garden, they'd be thinking about future glory and taking actions to move in that direction." Roth notes that there is value in historic preservation, such as for architecture, but it is not usually appropriate for gardens, because of the fact that a garden is alive and in a never ending state of flux. "With skilled care a garden gets better; with poor care it deteriorates. In Japan old gardens are regularly rebuilt, repaired, and reshaped, often to improve the appearance. He derides most cases of historic preservation for living things as "an uninspired, ill-fated approach." I would submit that Roth's logic is generally persuasive when applied to bonsai as well. Just as the most skilled bonsai artists strive for excellence and hope to improve their bonsai routinely, those who manage public collections should have the flexibility to pursue the best design for a donated bonsai, just as the donor would have done. A curator should regularly consult with other bonsai artists (especially the donor artist, if possible) about design and maintenance plans for individual bonsai. (S)he should also possess a self awareness of his/her design biases and avoid making all the bonsai in the collection look like their own. Beyond that, they need to be free of rigid constraints of trying to maintain a design plan for a specific bonsai from a specific point of time. To do otherwise is unrealistic and detrimental to the health and design quality of the bonsai. Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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