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#1
23-12-2003, 09:12 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
Depends on who you told you.
Kitsune Miko --- Kirby Jo wrote: I have been told both to water from the top and to water from the bottom......which is correct? - Kirby ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#3
23-12-2003, 10:04 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
Top. Until the water exits through the drain holes.
Regards, Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9 ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Jo Subject: [IBC] water from top or bottom I have been told both to water from the top and to water from the bottom......which is correct? - Kirby ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#4
23-12-2003, 10:04 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
To judge from these answers, have I been totally wrong in filling up the
kitchen sink, and then lower the trees into the water? The right way is the way my mother used to water the plants in the living room? -- Regards, Ole Kvaal, Trondheim, Norway ================================================== ========================== Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
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#5
24-12-2003, 02:03 AM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
rschmitt23 wrote:
Apparently it depends on the plant. For example, Peter Chan in his 1985 bonsai book "Bonsai: The Art of Growing and Keeping Miniature Trees" recommends that a bonsai pot containing a willow (Salix spp.) should be immersed in water during the summer. Same for a swamp cypress (Taxodium distichum) bonsai. Later -- Ray Schmitt, Aliso Viejo, CA Cold Hardiness Zone 10b AHS Heat Zone 4 Sunset Climate Zone 22 I have heard of people leaving willows standing in water during the summer, if that's what you're referring to. Indoors I have my South African Puzzle Bush (Ehretia rigida) in standing water and it loves it. However, you can't do that with most bonsai. I water from the top. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#6
24-12-2003, 02:33 AM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
Basically, it is important to water all plants from the top because as
the water moves down through the soil it will push out the old air and draw in fresh air. So, whenever you water using this method you will change the air in the soil which is very important. After potting or repotting in bonsai soil it is also important to soak the bonsai from the bottom AND from the top at the same time. The best way to do this is to place the bonsai in a shallow pan of water up to the container rim and allow the water to thoroughly soak each individual particle of DRY soil. This is important because bonsai soil is usually bone dry before potting. Now, since the roots need immediate moisture, I will always water the bonsai from the top at the SAME time since this is quicker than the water moving up the dry soil. When I water this way, only after potting, small particles of dust can be seen leaving the drainage holes. This small dust can actually clog the quick draining soil. If the bonsai collection is not large in number you can use the following technique for fertilizing which works excellent... if you have the time to do it. Place water soluble fertilizer in a wheelbarrow then move it from table to table to soak the bonsai from the bottom. The fertilizer will thoroughly penetrate even the most potbound bonsai through the hard soil. A good technique is to soak your healthiest and most vigorous pines and narrow-leaf conifers FIRST, then proceed to less vigorous specimens. Healthy plants will have an abundance of mycrohizza in the soil which may become dislodged in the fertilizer water. When you soak the next bonsai it will become inoculated with the mycorhizza. Yes, I know that pathogens can be spread using this technique, but I have not had that experience. But I have seen mycrohizza spread... I had excellent results using this fertilizing technique, when my collection was small enough to use it. Now I only use it for special specimens. Hope this helps and is not too confusing. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#7
24-12-2003, 02:33 AM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
I water from the top.
Myself, I like to dunk;donuts as well. LOL Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Craig Cowing Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 5:41 PM To: Subject: [IBC] water from top or bottom rschmitt23 wrote: Apparently it depends on the plant. For example, Peter Chan in his 1985 bonsai book "Bonsai: The Art of Growing and Keeping Miniature Trees" recommends that a bonsai pot containing a willow (Salix spp.) should be immersed in water during the summer. Same for a swamp cypress (Taxodium distichum) bonsai. Later -- Ray Schmitt, Aliso Viejo, CA Cold Hardiness Zone 10b AHS Heat Zone 4 Sunset Climate Zone 22 I have heard of people leaving willows standing in water during the summer, if that's what you're referring to. Indoors I have my South African Puzzle Bush (Ehretia rigida) in standing water and it loves it. However, you can't do that with most bonsai. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ********************** ******** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ********************** ******** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#8
24-12-2003, 11:32 AM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
Good advice, Bill. I would like to suggest that one more reason for bottom
watering of new plantings is not to disturb ornamental effects (i.e. moss and small pebbles in a forest or seikei.) Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "William N. Valavanis" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 9:04 PM Subject: [IBC] water from top or bottom Basically, it is important to water all plants from the top because as the water moves down through the soil it will push out the old air and draw in fresh air. So, whenever you water using this method you will change the air in the soil which is very important. After potting or repotting in bonsai soil it is also important to soak the bonsai from the bottom AND from the top at the same time. The best way to do this is to place the bonsai in a shallow pan of water up to the container rim and allow the water to thoroughly soak each individual particle of DRY soil. This is important because bonsai soil is usually bone dry before potting. Now, since the roots need immediate moisture, I will always water the bonsai from the top at the SAME time since this is quicker than the water moving up the dry soil. When I water this way, only after potting, small particles of dust can be seen leaving the drainage holes. This small dust can actually clog the quick draining soil. If the bonsai collection is not large in number you can use the following technique for fertilizing which works excellent... if you have the time to do it. Place water soluble fertilizer in a wheelbarrow then move it from table to table to soak the bonsai from the bottom. The fertilizer will thoroughly penetrate even the most potbound bonsai through the hard soil. A good technique is to soak your healthiest and most vigorous pines and narrow-leaf conifers FIRST, then proceed to less vigorous specimens. Healthy plants will have an abundance of mycrohizza in the soil which may become dislodged in the fertilizer water. When you soak the next bonsai it will become inoculated with the mycorhizza. Yes, I know that pathogens can be spread using this technique, but I have not had that experience. But I have seen mycrohizza spread... I had excellent results using this fertilizing technique, when my collection was small enough to use it. Now I only use it for special specimens. Hope this helps and is not too confusing. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#9
24-12-2003, 01:39 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
To judge from these answers, have I been totally wrong in filling up the
kitchen sink, and then lower the trees into the water? The right way is the way my mother used to water the plants in the living room? People, don't commit ritual suicide over this or anything. Watering from the bottom is often a big production, and since there's no reason to do it, you don't have to. I used to do it once a month in order to fertilize everybody, but when I thought about the possibility of spreading pathogens around (I'm a plant pathologist, I can't help it), I stopped doing it. But it's not a big deal one way or another. Except: if you use perlite in your pre-bonsai soil mix, you will *so* regret immersing your pots, b ecause perlite floats. Oy. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#10
24-12-2003, 02:18 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
Basically, it is important to water all plants from the top because as
the water moves down through the soil it will push out the old air and draw in fresh air. Bill, I bow to you in most situations, but this sounds bogus to me. Water will displace air whether you add it from the top or bottom, and when it drains, air will come back. Nina. I bow to Bill. Really. Watch at the next MidAtlantic Conference. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#11
24-12-2003, 02:42 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
In a message dated 12/24/2003 8:44:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: Basically, it is important to water all plants from the top because as the water moves down through the soil it will push out the old air and draw in fresh air. Bill, I bow to you in most situations, but this sounds bogus to me. Water will displace air whether you add it from the top or bottom, and when it drains, air will come back. Sounded a little bogus to me also that is why I didn't mention it in my post, but I have heard it before. Billy on the Florida Space Coast Bonsai Societies of Florida Annual Convention Memorial Day Weekend 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral, Florida www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#12
24-12-2003, 03:36 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
I dunno about willow, but I have learned the bald cypress do NOT need to be immersed in water all summer -- except perhaps in the Arizona desert. In fact, I think they grow better if grown as "normal" bonsai. They seem to not grow much if kept in water -
- which may be OK with a mature "finished" tree. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: rschmitt23 Reply-To: rschmitt23 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:33:39 -0800 Apparently it depends on the plant. For example, Peter Chan in his 1985 bonsai book "Bonsai: The Art of Growing and Keeping Miniature Trees" recommends that a bonsai pot containing a willow (Salix spp.) should be immersed in water during the summer. Same for a swamp cypress (Taxodium distichum) bonsai. Later -- Ray Schmitt, Aliso Viejo, CA Cold Hardiness Zone 10b AHS Heat Zone 4 Sunset Climate Zone 22 "Kirby Jo" wrote in message news  I have been told both to water from the top and to water from the bottom......which is correct? - Kirby ************************************************* ******************************* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************* ******************************* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#13
24-12-2003, 05:42 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
At 08:43 AM 12/24/03 -0500, Nina Shishkoff wrote:
Basically, it is important to water all plants from the top because as the water moves down through the soil it will push out the old air and draw in fresh air. Bill, I bow to you in most situations, but this sounds bogus to me. Water will displace air whether you add it from the top or bottom, and when it drains, air will come back. Nina. I bow to Bill. Really. Watch at the next MidAtlantic Conference. Folks It's not a REALLY big deal, unless you live in a hard water area, BUT there most certainly is a difference: When you soak a plant (dunk it), it sits in the same volume of water without any active circulation. The soil gets saturated. When you lift it out, it drains. There has been a flush with only the volume of drain water, regardless of the size of the container used for soaking. If you don't let water go above the rim of the pot, but rather let it get to the top by capillary action, there is effectiviely NO flushing action of the top layers of soil. Each watering will add a little more salt deposit as the water is evaporated or absorbed by the plant When you water from above, the reverse is true. The top layers of soil are continually bathed in fresh water with a less than saturated amount of dissolved salt. This tends to dissolve any salt left behind by the evaporation of the previous watering. Additionally, as the soil becomes saturated, it drains, and additional watering will flush the soil with many times the volume of the pot depending on how long you water. If you are in a hard water area, watering overhead by a mist irrigation spray or other system attached to a timer allows you to flush virtually all of the dissolved salt that is practically possible. The same is true of air flow through the soil mixture, although I doubt this is as important as the salt flushing action of water flow. If you dunk your plant, the water drains out the bottom and pulls in a fresh charge of air behind it. One change of air, but probably adequate. If you water from above much more air will be pulled through the soil mixture, unless you water with a firehose and have some way of not blasting out the soil. Hey, glued on rocks! Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#14
24-12-2003, 06:42 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
Dear IBCers:
This is another one of those things that we will be debating for many years.... I tend to agree with Brent. I hand-water, from above, three times with at least a 15-minute interval. Accumulated salts, are usually washed out by the second and especially the third watering. Of course, this is my Humble Opinion! Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7 http://bmee.net/rosner http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48 http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48 Brent Walston wrote: Folks It's not a REALLY big deal, unless you live in a hard water area, BUT there most certainly is a difference: When you soak a plant (dunk it), it sits in the same volume of water without any active circulation. The soil gets saturated. When you lift it out, it drains. There has been a flush with only the volume of drain water, regardless of the size of the container used for soaking. If you don't let water go above the rim of the pot, but rather let it get to the top by capillary action, there is effectiviely NO flushing action of the top layers of soil. Each watering will add a little more salt deposit as the water is evaporated or absorbed by the plant When you water from above, the reverse is true. The top layers of soil are continually bathed in fresh water with a less than saturated amount of dissolved salt. This tends to dissolve any salt left behind by the evaporation of the previous watering. Additionally, as the soil becomes saturated, it drains, and additional watering will flush the soil with many times the volume of the pot depending on how long you water. If you are in a hard water area, watering overhead by a mist irrigation spray or other system attached to a timer allows you to flush virtually all of the dissolved salt that is practically possible. The same is true of air flow through the soil mixture, although I doubt this is as important as the salt flushing action of water flow. If you dunk your plant, the water drains out the bottom and pulls in a fresh charge of air behind it. One change of air, but probably adequate. If you water from above much more air will be pulled through the soil mixture, unless you water with a firehose and have some way of not blasting out the soil. Hey, glued on rocks! Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#15
24-12-2003, 08:12 PM
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[IBC] water from top or bottom
my nice ficus bonsai needs a shower
or else it lets me know about it ! jim from upper midwest --- we do not just grow larch and spruce anymore ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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