Jeff:

Again, the this is only part of what I view as a comprehensive procedure. For example, Scots are extremely forgiving and often grow as a remarkable rate. Blacks, while forgiving, can be irrevocably damaged through excessive candle removal if the tree is not vigorous.

The vigor of the tree should always be used as a guideline before subjecting the specimen to any procedure. For example, I just styled an 900-1,000 year old Douglas Fir. The branch reduction process was initiated in March with the goal of allowing sap to gradually withdraw over a period of several months (to ensure the continued health of the upper portion of the tree. The initial styling was completed only 2 weeks ago.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob


In a message dated 7/22/2004 9:32:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL)" writes:

Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho, Scotts and Bosnian.

Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Kitsune Miko
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] black pines


In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August.

Others? Michael?

Kitsune Miko


****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

************************************************* *******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************* *******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************* *******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************* *******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August.

Kitsune Miko,

While I hope to answer your specific question I hope you'll allow me to
pontificate some about what I've learned over two decades and at least 4
growing zones...

Most blindly follow what the books say (or will say) without examining the
underlying process. This is typically regurgitated technique learned from the
Japanese without regard for subtleties or differences in climate.

The techniques, if applied by rote, will "work", but are the results the best
one can accomplish? What works in Philadelphia PA will not work as well in
Philadelphia TX- or California for that manner.

This seems especially true of pines as they are so slow to develop and so
seemingly complicated. One of the most exciting things to see was the series
of articles published by Bill Valavanis regarding pine theory!

Pines are "cyclical bonsai"; needles are added each year, old ones are shed,
etc. The needles don't continue to stay reduced- if they do one must be
concerned about the vigor of the tree. There is absolutely no good reason to
reduce needles on a pine in training or where one is still trying to develop
structure. While growth control techniques may have the side effect of reduced
needle size, these techniques are applied for a completely different purpose.

To maintain a pine in perfect show condition at all times is not advisable. A
good analogy is an athlete- they stay "in shape" and then fine tune for the big
competition, then rest... There are specimen-specific variations in response,
climactic and horticultural effects negating a one size fits all approach.
Three aspects should be considered, IMO.

Repotting- a vigorous pine will typically produce long needles. Root pruning
and repotting will typically invigorate the tree after a recovery period-
something you want to consider before applying needle reduction techniques.
I.e., do not exacerbate yourself by root pruning, etc. and then expecting a
healthy response that same year. It very well may not happen. One must balance
the pot bound state with maintaining the
necessary reserves to respond.

Feeding and watering- traditional mindset regarding bonsai said this is how
bonsai were kept small. Obviously this is not true, but when one is attempting
needle reduction this must be carefully considered. The approach I use is to
feed heavily all season when building structure but withhold fertilizer
until after candles have been removed on a tree to be shown. Then fertilize
organically.

Growth removal- The method you describe of removing all new growth in August is
one we typically use in TX for shohin pines- one allows energy to go into these
first
buds for as long as possible which then limits the amount of time and energy
for the
second flush to grow before dormancy. This will certainly work for larger
pines as well- producing "shohin growth". Normally one does this around July
4th here.

Hmmmm. but what happens if you are in the subtropics, i.e., my zone 9, where
your tree sometimes skips it's nap!

There goes the textbook approach previously proffered. I expect after 25 years
you know how your trees respond. Typically what I would recommend is with at
least 90 days before dormancy (or the show) would be the latest date to remove
all growth and still be able to develop adequate buds. This a follow-up to the
candle pinching that acts primarily to balance the tree out and encourage
profuse new buds. Regardless of the dormancy date one would generally not cut
off new growth before the needles harden off.

I would encourage everyone to forget the books- learn to read the signs that
indicate the correct action rather than using a mindless calendar method.
Also, consider the method Ernie Kuo described in Bonsai Today where one can get
additional growth cycles. It works.

Sincerely,

Jim Stone

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Brent:

As you now, Blacks are two-needle pines. Kitsune is referring to 5 pairs of needles (i.e, two needles per pair).

Cordially,

Michael Persiano

In a message dated 7/22/2004 5:04:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brent writes:

I have owned a black Bonsai pine for 8 years. I have kept it alive and
health, but I still don' know what you mean to cut back to five bunches of
needles. Any help is appreciated.


"Isom, Jeff , EM, PTL" wrote in message
news:40F6934F9170964AAAD62F1E48579EB8B1F33D@RDGML VEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com...
Will this work on other 2-needle pines as well? Specifically: Mugho,
Scotts and Bosnian.

Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Kitsune Miko
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:52 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] black pines


In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for
controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in
California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving
only 5 bunches of needles to bud into candles. I was wondering about the
timing. I used to do this in mid to late August.

Others? Michael?

Kitsune Miko


****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott


************************************************* ***************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++

************************************************* ***************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************* ***************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++

************************************************* ***************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************* *******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************* *******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Jim:

California is not PA, PA is not Maine, etc. Timing will vary based on your region. Ideally, needles should not be thinned until they harden off. Why? Tender needles are easily damaged. If damage is severe and in quantity, the branch could lose it sapflow and die.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob
In a message dated 7/22/2004 2:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jim Stone writes:

I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August.

Kitsune Miko,

While I hope to answer your specific question I hope you'll allow me to
pontificate some about what I've learned over two decades and at least 4
growing zones...

Most blindly follow what the books say (or will say) without examining the
underlying process. This is typically regurgitated technique learned from the
Japanese without regard for subtleties or differences in climate.

The techniques, if applied by rote, will "work", but are the results the best
one can accomplish? What works in Philadelphia PA will not work as well in
Philadelphia TX- or California for that manner.

This seems especially true of pines as they are so slow to develop and so
seemingly complicated. One of the most exciting things to see was the series
of articles published by Bill Valavanis regarding pine theory!

Pines are "cyclical bonsai"; needles are added each year, old ones are shed,
etc. The needles don't continue to stay reduced- if they do one must be
concerned about the vigor of the tree. There is absolutely no good reason to
reduce needles on a pine in training or where one is still trying to develop
structure. While growth control techniques may have the side effect of reduced
needle size, these techniques are applied for a completely different purpose.

To maintain a pine in perfect show condition at all times is not advisable. A
good analogy is an athlete- they stay "in shape" and then fine tune for the big
competition, then rest... There are specimen-specific variations in response,
climactic and horticultural effects negating a one size fits all approach.
Three aspects should be considered, IMO.

Repotting- a vigorous pine will typically produce long needles. Root pruning
and repotting will typically invigorate the tree after a recovery period-
something you want to consider before applying needle reduction techniques.
I.e., do not exacerbate yourself by root pruning, etc. and then expecting a
healthy response that same year. It very well may not happen. One must balance
the pot bound state with maintaining the
necessary reserves to respond.

Feeding and watering- traditional mindset regarding bonsai said this is how
bonsai were kept small. Obviously this is not true, but when one is attempting
needle reduction this must be carefully considered. The approach I use is to
feed heavily all season when building structure but withhold fertilizer
until after candles have been removed on a tree to be shown. Then fertilize
organically.

Growth removal- The method you describe of removing all new growth in August is
one we typically use in TX for shohin pines- one allows energy to go into these
first
buds for as long as possible which then limits the amount of time and energy
for the
second flush to grow before dormancy. This will certainly work for larger
pines as well- producing "shohin growth". Normally one does this around July
4th here.

Hmmmm. but what happens if you are in the subtropics, i.e., my zone 9, where
your tree sometimes skips it's nap!

There goes the textbook approach previously proffered. I expect after 25 years
you know how your trees respond. Typically what I would recommend is with at
least 90 days before dormancy (or the show) would be the latest date to remove
all growth and still be able to develop adequate buds. This a follow-up to the
candle pinching that acts primarily to balance the tree out and encourage
profuse new buds. Regardless of the dormancy date one would generally not cut
off new growth before the needles harden off.

I would encourage everyone to forget the books- learn to read the signs that
indicate the correct action rather than using a mindless calendar method.
Also, consider the method Ernie Kuo described in Bonsai Today where one can get
additional growth cycles. It works.

Sincerely,

Jim Stone

************************************************* *******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************* *******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

In my 25 years of dong bonsai, I have seen almost as many methods for controling needle length on black pines. The current one we are using in California is to cut back all new growth during the month of July, leaving only 5 bunches of needles to bud int
o candles. I was wondering about the timing. I used to do this in mid to late August.

Others? Michael?

Kitsune Miko


****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++