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[IBC] What is the correct name?
Hi all
I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level(workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) dont like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#2
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You have opened one of those cans of worms we have
discussed and disected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an appreticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level(workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) dont like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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You have opened one of those cans of worms we have
discussed and disected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an appreticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level(workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) dont like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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How interesting that this topic should be revisited at
this time. I just published an article on bonsai masters and competition in my local newsletter which addressed this topic in passing. Here's the gist of the relevant part: While I recognize that some people are bonsai masters, I tend not to think of them by title, but rather as the individuals they are. Often I agree with them, sometimes not. I'm not much for gurus, wise men or masters, but I respect wisdom, knowledge and experience. The title of master is there for anyone to claim or confer. In itself the title is meaningless. The meaning comes from the essence of the one who wears the title. Sandy/Kitsune mentions the distinction between hobbyist and professional bonsaiist. There are many advanced practitioners who consider the hobbyist to be the "higher" calling, assuming that the hobbyist practices art for art's sake and not having to yield to commercial aspects. Perhaps there is some merit to the idea, but I don't know about this. I'm not a fan of such dichotomous stereotypical distinctions. Back to your choices, I'm one who uses the title "master" sparingly and prefer to our guest speakers as artists or teachers. The "masters" themselves don't seem to mind! ;-) Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Kitsune Miko You have opened one of those cans of worms we have discussed and dissected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbyists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbyist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an apprenticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbyist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level (workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) don't like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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How interesting that this topic should be revisited at
this time. I just published an article on bonsai masters and competition in my local newsletter which addressed this topic in passing. Here's the gist of the relevant part: While I recognize that some people are bonsai masters, I tend not to think of them by title, but rather as the individuals they are. Often I agree with them, sometimes not. I'm not much for gurus, wise men or masters, but I respect wisdom, knowledge and experience. The title of master is there for anyone to claim or confer. In itself the title is meaningless. The meaning comes from the essence of the one who wears the title. Sandy/Kitsune mentions the distinction between hobbyist and professional bonsaiist. There are many advanced practitioners who consider the hobbyist to be the "higher" calling, assuming that the hobbyist practices art for art's sake and not having to yield to commercial aspects. Perhaps there is some merit to the idea, but I don't know about this. I'm not a fan of such dichotomous stereotypical distinctions. Back to your choices, I'm one who uses the title "master" sparingly and prefer to our guest speakers as artists or teachers. The "masters" themselves don't seem to mind! ;-) Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Kitsune Miko You have opened one of those cans of worms we have discussed and dissected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbyists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbyist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an apprenticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbyist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level (workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) don't like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#6
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How interesting that this topic should be revisited at
this time. I just published an article on bonsai masters and competition in my local newsletter which addressed this topic in passing. Here's the gist of the relevant part: While I recognize that some people are bonsai masters, I tend not to think of them by title, but rather as the individuals they are. Often I agree with them, sometimes not. I'm not much for gurus, wise men or masters, but I respect wisdom, knowledge and experience. The title of master is there for anyone to claim or confer. In itself the title is meaningless. The meaning comes from the essence of the one who wears the title. Sandy/Kitsune mentions the distinction between hobbyist and professional bonsaiist. There are many advanced practitioners who consider the hobbyist to be the "higher" calling, assuming that the hobbyist practices art for art's sake and not having to yield to commercial aspects. Perhaps there is some merit to the idea, but I don't know about this. I'm not a fan of such dichotomous stereotypical distinctions. Back to your choices, I'm one who uses the title "master" sparingly and prefer to our guest speakers as artists or teachers. The "masters" themselves don't seem to mind! ;-) Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Kitsune Miko You have opened one of those cans of worms we have discussed and dissected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbyists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbyist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an apprenticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbyist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level (workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) don't like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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HI Alan
I agree with you I do not like the terminology of *master* create a sort of barrier between two people I recognize accept and respect the knowledge some people has and that is superior to my knowledge, and anyway is an endless knowledge ... so we all are * teachers* and pupils at the same time but some *knows * more than others * and it is a fact but knowledge is not a monopoly it is something we all can acquire artistic taste is another thing ...but can improved too Alan Walker wrote: How interesting that this topic should be revisited at this time. I just published an article on bonsai masters and competition in my local newsletter which addressed this topic in passing. Here's the gist of the relevant part: While I recognize that some people are bonsai masters, I tend not to think of them by title, but rather as the individuals they are. Often I agree with them, sometimes not. I'm not much for gurus, wise men or masters, but I respect wisdom, knowledge and experience. The title of master is there for anyone to claim or confer. In itself the title is meaningless. The meaning comes from the essence of the one who wears the title. Sandy/Kitsune mentions the distinction between hobbyist and professional bonsaiist. There are many advanced practitioners who consider the hobbyist to be the "higher" calling, assuming that the hobbyist practices art for art's sake and not having to yield to commercial aspects. Perhaps there is some merit to the idea, but I don't know about this. I'm not a fan of such dichotomous stereotypical distinctions. Back to your choices, I'm one who uses the title "master" sparingly and prefer to our guest speakers as artists or teachers. The "masters" themselves don't seem to mind! ;-) Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Kitsune Miko You have opened one of those cans of worms we have discussed and dissected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbyists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbyist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an apprenticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbyist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level (workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) don't like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#8
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HI Alan
I agree with you I do not like the terminology of *master* create a sort of barrier between two people I recognize accept and respect the knowledge some people has and that is superior to my knowledge, and anyway is an endless knowledge ... so we all are * teachers* and pupils at the same time but some *knows * more than others * and it is a fact but knowledge is not a monopoly it is something we all can acquire artistic taste is another thing ...but can improved too Alan Walker wrote: How interesting that this topic should be revisited at this time. I just published an article on bonsai masters and competition in my local newsletter which addressed this topic in passing. Here's the gist of the relevant part: While I recognize that some people are bonsai masters, I tend not to think of them by title, but rather as the individuals they are. Often I agree with them, sometimes not. I'm not much for gurus, wise men or masters, but I respect wisdom, knowledge and experience. The title of master is there for anyone to claim or confer. In itself the title is meaningless. The meaning comes from the essence of the one who wears the title. Sandy/Kitsune mentions the distinction between hobbyist and professional bonsaiist. There are many advanced practitioners who consider the hobbyist to be the "higher" calling, assuming that the hobbyist practices art for art's sake and not having to yield to commercial aspects. Perhaps there is some merit to the idea, but I don't know about this. I'm not a fan of such dichotomous stereotypical distinctions. Back to your choices, I'm one who uses the title "master" sparingly and prefer to our guest speakers as artists or teachers. The "masters" themselves don't seem to mind! ;-) Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Kitsune Miko You have opened one of those cans of worms we have discussed and dissected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbyists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbyist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an apprenticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbyist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level (workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) don't like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#9
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HI Alan
I agree with you I do not like the terminology of *master* create a sort of barrier between two people I recognize accept and respect the knowledge some people has and that is superior to my knowledge, and anyway is an endless knowledge ... so we all are * teachers* and pupils at the same time but some *knows * more than others * and it is a fact but knowledge is not a monopoly it is something we all can acquire artistic taste is another thing ...but can improved too Alan Walker wrote: How interesting that this topic should be revisited at this time. I just published an article on bonsai masters and competition in my local newsletter which addressed this topic in passing. Here's the gist of the relevant part: While I recognize that some people are bonsai masters, I tend not to think of them by title, but rather as the individuals they are. Often I agree with them, sometimes not. I'm not much for gurus, wise men or masters, but I respect wisdom, knowledge and experience. The title of master is there for anyone to claim or confer. In itself the title is meaningless. The meaning comes from the essence of the one who wears the title. Sandy/Kitsune mentions the distinction between hobbyist and professional bonsaiist. There are many advanced practitioners who consider the hobbyist to be the "higher" calling, assuming that the hobbyist practices art for art's sake and not having to yield to commercial aspects. Perhaps there is some merit to the idea, but I don't know about this. I'm not a fan of such dichotomous stereotypical distinctions. Back to your choices, I'm one who uses the title "master" sparingly and prefer to our guest speakers as artists or teachers. The "masters" themselves don't seem to mind! ;-) Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Kitsune Miko You have opened one of those cans of worms we have discussed and dissected many times in the past. There is no single correct answer to your question. Sensei is an honorific that means teacher in Japanese. It can be used for anyone who teaches. Ranking bonsai practitioners/professionals/hobbyists is not an easy thing outside Japan. A hobbyist can have considerable knowledge and little formal training. One can have formal training, but if one does not have a good eye, the training is worthless. Many times those who speak or give workshops have a facility with one type of plant, but not others. Master is, in my mind, a title used for one who has done their training under another recognized master. One who has put in the time that can be called an apprenticeship, and graduated. This apprenticeship is usually 5 years. This doesn't mean that the work created by a hobbyist is less than that of a master. My teachers are my trees. I study with them on an ongoing basis. I look, listen and learn, but I have yet to find a tree I can call master. Kitsune Miko --- "Alejandro Bedini G." wrote: Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level (workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) don't like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? Best regards, Alejandro. Chile (Chili) South America ____________________ Alejandro Bedini G. Académico Depto de Industrias UTFSM ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#10
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On 30 Nov 2004 at 23:02, Theo wrote:
HI Alan I agree with you I do not like the terminology of *master* create a sort of barrier between two people I recognize accept and respect the knowledge some people has and that is superior to my knowledge, and anyway is an endless knowledge ... so we all are * teachers* and pupils at the same time but some *knows * more than others * and it is a fact but knowledge is not a monopoly it is something we all can acquire artistic taste is another thing ...but can improved too And some of us know quite a bit about some things and much less on others. And nothing about the rest. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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On 30 Nov 2004 at 23:02, Theo wrote:
HI Alan I agree with you I do not like the terminology of *master* create a sort of barrier between two people I recognize accept and respect the knowledge some people has and that is superior to my knowledge, and anyway is an endless knowledge ... so we all are * teachers* and pupils at the same time but some *knows * more than others * and it is a fact but knowledge is not a monopoly it is something we all can acquire artistic taste is another thing ...but can improved too And some of us know quite a bit about some things and much less on others. And nothing about the rest. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
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Jim Lewis wrote: And some of us know quite a bit about some things and much less on others. And nothing about the rest. ;-) well *di tutto un poco " is a nice formula ( a little of eveyrthing) MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#13
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Jim Lewis wrote: And some of us know quite a bit about some things and much less on others. And nothing about the rest. ;-) well *di tutto un poco " is a nice formula ( a little of eveyrthing) MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#14
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"Alejandro Bedini G." wrote in message news:008a01c4d6eb$43d92760$2a1601c8@bedini... Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level(workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) dont like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? I would have to say Teacher, if they are teaching it in a class. Professional if they make a living out of bonsai, that being creating and selling them (teaching too under this title). Otherwise I would go with hobbyist if it's a hobby, and not your main source of income. I think Master is a little over the top, and I don't really see it as an artist. Yes, some bonsai starters here in OZ are labelled as a living art, which maybe they are in a way, but then so would someones well kept garden. Cheers Andrew -- Mid North Coast New South Wales Australia |
#15
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"Alejandro Bedini G." wrote in message news:008a01c4d6eb$43d92760$2a1601c8@bedini... Hi all I know the professional people who doing bonsai in a high level(workshop, teach, demo, congress, lecture) dont like Call or use the word MASTER. What do you think is the correct name to use? A) Teacher B) Artist C) professional D) ???? I would have to say Teacher, if they are teaching it in a class. Professional if they make a living out of bonsai, that being creating and selling them (teaching too under this title). Otherwise I would go with hobbyist if it's a hobby, and not your main source of income. I think Master is a little over the top, and I don't really see it as an artist. Yes, some bonsai starters here in OZ are labelled as a living art, which maybe they are in a way, but then so would someones well kept garden. Cheers Andrew -- Mid North Coast New South Wales Australia |
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