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#1
18-04-2005, 05:53 PM
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[IBC] Mountain maple
Curiosity got me and I did a little research regarding the term
"yamamomiji," a Japanese word meaning "mountain maple." As expected the results are confusing and inconsistent. 1. Kokufuten albums. List a single category for maples: "momiji." However, once you look at individual trees it is different. Momiji is the largest group in the deciduous section, some trees are listed simply as momiji, Acer palmatum, some as momiji, Acer palmatum "XXXX," where XXXX is a Japanese variety, AND interestingly enough some listed as yama momiji, Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae.. 2. Checking several of my Japanese bonsai books, I found that some list momiji only, while some separates momiji and yama momiji. In one particular book I found the two were listed separate and every one of them was identified with an additional cultivar name written in kanji, the Chinese characters used in Japan. Every momiji had a different cultivar kanji as expected. All yama momiji were identified with the same cultivar and the same two kanji. The first kanji in that combination is yama or mountain as expected, while the second kanji is a very rarely used one that I found in my specialized dictionary. It is pronounced as seki or shuku and translated as "kaede, maple tree." 3. My best guess is that the so called Japanese mountain maple is "Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae." To add to the confusion, if you check Vertrees' "Japanese Maples, second edition" that I consider as the definitive source, in his section Acer Palmetum's taxonomic subdivision the breakdown is Palmatum, Amoenum, and Matsumurae, with the last group containing nearly 80 varieties. Just an aside: Unfortunately I have trouble keeping any of the Japanese maples here in Oklahoma as the heat and wind burns up the leaves. I do have a trident that is doing well. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#2
18-04-2005, 06:18 PM
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If my memory serves me correctly, both my japanese
sensei use "momiji" to mean trident or frog paw and Kaede to mean palmatium, becasue this described a 5 fingered chiles hand. So again we come to direct translaton vs meanings of word in use. Kits --- Peter wrote: Curiosity got me and I did a little research regarding the term "yamamomiji," a Japanese word meaning "mountain maple." As expected the results are confusing and inconsistent. 1. Kokufuten albums. List a single category for maples: "momiji." However, once you look at individual trees it is different. Momiji is the largest group in the deciduous section, some trees are listed simply as momiji, Acer palmatum, some as momiji, Acer palmatum "XXXX," where XXXX is a Japanese variety, AND interestingly enough some listed as yama momiji, Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae.. 2. Checking several of my Japanese bonsai books, I found that some list momiji only, while some separates momiji and yama momiji. In one particular book I found the two were listed separate and every one of them was identified with an additional cultivar name written in kanji, the Chinese characters used in Japan. Every momiji had a different cultivar kanji as expected. All yama momiji were identified with the same cultivar and the same two kanji. The first kanji in that combination is yama or mountain as expected, while the second kanji is a very rarely used one that I found in my specialized dictionary. It is pronounced as seki or shuku and translated as "kaede, maple tree." 3. My best guess is that the so called Japanese mountain maple is "Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae." To add to the confusion, if you check Vertrees' "Japanese Maples, second edition" that I consider as the definitive source, in his section Acer Palmetum's taxonomic subdivision the breakdown is Palmatum, Amoenum, and Matsumurae, with the last group containing nearly 80 varieties. Just an aside: Unfortunately I have trouble keeping any of the Japanese maples here in Oklahoma as the heat and wind burns up the leaves. I do have a trident that is doing well. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#4
18-04-2005, 07:05 PM
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i stand corrected! ;-}
--- Peter wrote: Dear Kits: I believe it is the other way around. Kaede is trident, and palmatum is momiji. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Kitsune Miko Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 12:19 PM To: Subject: [IBC] Mountain maple If my memory serves me correctly, both my japanese sensei use "momiji" to mean trident or frog paw and Kaede to mean palmatium, becasue this described a 5 fingered chiles hand. So again we come to direct translaton vs meanings of word in use. Kits --- Peter wrote: Curiosity got me and I did a little research regarding the term "yamamomiji," a Japanese word meaning "mountain maple." As expected the results are confusing and inconsistent. 1. Kokufuten albums. List a single category for maples: "momiji." However, once you look at individual trees it is different. Momiji is the largest group in the deciduous section, some trees are listed simply as momiji, Acer palmatum, some as momiji, Acer palmatum "XXXX," where XXXX is a Japanese variety, AND interestingly enough some listed as yama momiji, Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae.. 2. Checking several of my Japanese bonsai books, I found that some list momiji only, while some separates momiji and yama momiji. In one particular book I found the two were listed separate and every one of them was identified with an additional cultivar name written in kanji, the Chinese characters used in Japan. Every momiji had a different cultivar kanji as expected. All yama momiji were identified with the same cultivar and the same two kanji. The first kanji in that combination is yama or mountain as expected, while the second kanji is a very rarely used one that I found in my specialized dictionary. It is pronounced as seki or shuku and translated as "kaede, maple tree." 3. My best guess is that the so called Japanese mountain maple is "Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae." To add to the confusion, if you check Vertrees' "Japanese Maples, second edition" that I consider as the definitive source, in his section Acer Palmetum's taxonomic subdivision the breakdown is Palmatum, Amoenum, and Matsumurae, with the last group containing nearly 80 varieties. Just an aside: Unfortunately I have trouble keeping any of the Japanese maples here in Oklahoma as the heat and wind burns up the leaves. I do have a trident that is doing well. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#5
19-04-2005, 07:02 AM
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my 2 cents Kitsune Miko wrote: If my memory serves me correctly, both my japanese sensei use "momiji" to mean trident or frog paw and Kaede to mean palmatium, becasue this described a 5 fingered chiles hand. So again we come to direct translaton vs meanings of word in use. no momij means child's hand and is palmatum to-kede 3 figer frog paw leave acer burgerianum palmatums are 800 varieties and they are very mixed mountain maple is probaly intended as a naturally born in the mountan ,wild plant not from cultivars or grafted or from cuttings or nursery seedlings and probaly coming form Yamadori Kits --- Peter wrote: Curiosity got me and I did a little research regarding the term "yamamomiji," a Japanese word meaning "mountain maple." As expected the results are confusing and inconsistent. 1. Kokufuten albums. List a single category for maples: "momiji." However, once you look at individual trees it is different. Momiji is the largest group in the deciduous section, some trees are listed simply as momiji, Acer palmatum, some as momiji, Acer palmatum "XXXX," where XXXX is a Japanese variety, AND interestingly enough some listed as yama momiji, Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae.. 2. Checking several of my Japanese bonsai books, I found that some list momiji only, while some separates momiji and yama momiji. In one particular book I found the two were listed separate and every one of them was identified with an additional cultivar name written in kanji, the Chinese characters used in Japan. Every momiji had a different cultivar kanji as expected. All yama momiji were identified with the same cultivar and the same two kanji. The first kanji in that combination is yama or mountain as expected, while the second kanji is a very rarely used one that I found in my specialized dictionary. It is pronounced as seki or shuku and translated as "kaede, maple tree." 3. My best guess is that the so called Japanese mountain maple is "Acer palmatum v. Matsumurae." To add to the confusion, if you check Vertrees' "Japanese Maples, second edition" that I consider as the definitive source, in his section Acer Palmetum's taxonomic subdivision the breakdown is Palmatum, Amoenum, and Matsumurae, with the last group containing nearly 80 varieties. Just an aside: Unfortunately I have trouble keeping any of the Japanese maples here in Oklahoma as the heat and wind burns up the leaves. I do have a trident that is doing well. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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