wrote in message
...
Of course, crop rotation is another option.

We have two vegetable gardens several hundred feet apart. Everything is
rotated but the greens. The borers found the squash. A neighbor suggested we
cover them with screening but the cost is too much. The soil is rich with
compost and the plants get huge.

"Katey Didd" wrote in
:


wrote in message
...
Of course, crop rotation is another option.

We have two vegetable gardens several hundred feet apart.
Everything is rotated but the greens. The borers found the
squash. A neighbor suggested we cover them with screening
but the cost is too much. The soil is rich with compost and
the plants get huge.

the borers are generally only an issue with seedlings though.
sometimes tinfoil collars work, or if the borers are already
in the vine slit it & remove them. do not compost vines killed
by borers. sanitation helps a lot too.

lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

"enigma" wrote in message
. ..
"Katey Didd" wrote in
:


wrote in message
...
Of course, crop rotation is another option.

We have two vegetable gardens several hundred feet apart.
Everything is rotated but the greens. The borers found the
squash. A neighbor suggested we cover them with screening
but the cost is too much. The soil is rich with compost and
the plants get huge.

the borers are generally only an issue with seedlings though.
sometimes tinfoil collars work, or if the borers are already
in the vine slit it & remove them. do not compost vines killed
by borers. sanitation helps a lot too.

The vine borers here get into the main stem and kill the plant, not the
seedlings. They usually start their damage when the fruits have already
started to form. I've yet to ever see the adults. I've tried to slit the
vines to remove them and the plants would die anyway. They're not easy to
find in the vines and slitting the vines seems to kill the plants even
faster. Have you tried tinfoil collars and did the work for you?

lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

"Katey Didd" wrote in
:

The vine borers here get into the main stem and kill the
plant, not the seedlings. They usually start their damage
when the fruits have already started to form. I've yet to
ever see the adults. I've tried to slit the vines to remove
them and the plants would die anyway. They're not easy to
find in the vines and slitting the vines seems to kill the
plants even faster. Have you tried tinfoil collars and did
the work for you?

the adult is a clearwing moth.
i've never had borers kill mature vines, but i bury vines as
they grow so that they root along the length. i do put tinfoil
collars on young plants of the squash & cucumber family. if
borers are a real problem, you could try floating row covers &
hand pollenate the flowers...
are you slitting the vines where the borers are, or are you
slitting the entire vine looking for them? there's usually a
hole with frass near the borers location, & the moth lays the
eggs at the base of the vine, so the first place to look is at
the base, & then look for the frass.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

"enigma" wrote in message
.. .
"Katey Didd" wrote in
:

The vine borers here get into the main stem and kill the
plant, not the seedlings. They usually start their damage
when the fruits have already started to form. I've yet to
ever see the adults. I've tried to slit the vines to remove
them and the plants would die anyway. They're not easy to
find in the vines and slitting the vines seems to kill the
plants even faster. Have you tried tinfoil collars and did
the work for you?

the adult is a clearwing moth.
i've never had borers kill mature vines, but i bury vines as
they grow so that they root along the length. i do put tinfoil
collars on young plants of the squash & cucumber family. if
borers are a real problem, you could try floating row covers &
hand pollenate the flowers...

We're retired now and can't afford to by row covers. This gardening is
starting to get expensive. Insecticide, weed cloth, fertilizers, limestone,
Ironite.........

are you slitting the vines where the borers are, or are you
slitting the entire vine looking for them? there's usually a
hole with frass near the borers location, & the moth lays the
eggs at the base of the vine, so the first place to look is at
the base, & then look for the frass.

The *&^%$# borer is usually not near the hole. I have to slit the stem and
look for it, and the plant (crooknecks and zucchini) never recovers. I'm
going to put collars on them and use Sevin under and around the collars. If
that doesn't work I'll have to give up on these squash.


lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........

Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin, Ironite is likely
of no concern to you.

Care
Charlie

What Charlie is trying to say in his own inimitable way is the presence
of heavy metals in Ironite(R) has resulted in its banning in Canada and
lawsuits in the United States due to the potential release of heavy
metals, most notably arsenic and lead.
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm
and with respect to Sevin
one Canadian environmental organization in a letter addressed to local
citizens cites some of the 'documented' effects of carbaryl.

1. It causes birth defects in mammals, especially dogs.
2. It worsens the condition of people with hypertension and people on
anti-depressant drugs.
3. It impairs the function of the pituitary gland, the thyroid gland,
and the reproductive system.
4. It causes hyperactivity and learning disabilities in mammals.
5. It could increase the chance of heart attack in people with weak
hearts.
6. The main break-down product, nitrosocarbaryl, which is easily
created in the human gut, is a potent cancer-causing agent.
7. It causes irreversible chromosomal damage to human DNA (the genes
in our cells).
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-sl...bre-sevin.html

At the veeeery least, Sevin is "extremely toxic" to bees. Spray or dust
with Sevin and you'll be doing the pollination of your squash yourself
or you won't have squash. Most of us in the gardening groups that ingest
the plants we grow, are organic gardeners because, in part, we don't
want to poison ourselves, or the environment. These two products seem
imminently capable of doing both.

Rest assured that you are not the first to propose them products and
most assuredly, you won't be the last.

Keep reading the posts here in rec.gardens and rec.gardens.edible, and
check out some books from the library, you'll get the hang of it.

Some titles that I would recommend:

Any book by
Rodale
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw...ipbooks&field-
keywords=Rodale&x=0&y=0

How to Grow More Vegetables and Fruits
by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/How-Grow-More-...80087965/ref=s
r_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543192&sr=1-1

The Vegetable Gardener's Bible by Edward C. Smith
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543343&sr=1-1

The above are how-to books.

The book below explains healthy (organic) soil.

Teaming with Microbes by by Jeff Lowenfels &, Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210542894&sr= 1-1

The book below tells us why we are organic.

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543426&sr=1-1

This is by no means a definitive list, and you will see other
recommendations in the news groups, but these books are a good place to
begin understanding your new hobby.
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........

Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin, Ironite is likely
of no concern to you.

Care
Charlie

What Charlie is trying to say in his own inimitable way is the presence
of heavy metals in Ironite(R) has resulted in its banning in Canada and
lawsuits in the United States due to the potential release of heavy
metals, most notably arsenic and lead.
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm
and with respect to Sevin
one Canadian environmental organization in a letter addressed to local
citizens cites some of the 'documented' effects of carbaryl.

1. It causes birth defects in mammals, especially dogs.
2. It worsens the condition of people with hypertension and people on
anti-depressant drugs.
3. It impairs the function of the pituitary gland, the thyroid gland,
and the reproductive system.
4. It causes hyperactivity and learning disabilities in mammals.
5. It could increase the chance of heart attack in people with weak
hearts.
6. The main break-down product, nitrosocarbaryl, which is easily
created in the human gut, is a potent cancer-causing agent.
7. It causes irreversible chromosomal damage to human DNA (the genes
in our cells).
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-sl...bre-sevin.html

At the veeeery least, Sevin is "extremely toxic" to bees. Spray or dust
with Sevin and you'll be doing the pollination of your squash yourself
or you won't have squash. Most of us in the gardening groups that ingest
the plants we grow, are organic gardeners because, in part, we don't
want to poison ourselves, or the environment. These two products seem
imminently capable of doing both.

Rest assured that you are not the first to propose them products and
most assuredly, you won't be the last.

Keep reading the posts here in rec.gardens and rec.gardens.edible, and
check out some books from the library, you'll get the hang of it.

Some titles that I would recommend:

Any book by
Rodale
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw...ipbooks&field-
keywords=Rodale&x=0&y=0

How to Grow More Vegetables and Fruits
by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/How-Grow-More-...80087965/ref=s
r_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543192&sr=1-1

The Vegetable Gardener's Bible by Edward C. Smith
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543343&sr=1-1

The above are how-to books.

The book below explains healthy (organic) soil.

Teaming with Microbes by by Jeff Lowenfels &, Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210542894&sr= 1-1

The book below tells us why we are organic.

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543426&sr=1-1

This is by no means a definitive list, and you will see other
recommendations in the news groups, but these books are a good place to
begin understanding your new hobby.

I concur and think wow there is a lot to digest for young folks. If
you are not a reader and get your info via main media this almost never
shows up. No lobbyist I guess as no profiteering .
Historically family garden info was passed on by show and tell and see
results. I Think WW1 and WW2 disrupted this transfer of information in
a subtle way. We started to accept info from outsiders who had a larger
audience and were paid to display but had no contact with the
microclimates we live in.

Paranoid you bet!

Marshall McLuhan come to this mind.

Bill whose children never asked a question concerning growing things.
Perhaps they think it is a given? I don't know.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Billy wrote:
In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........
Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin, Ironite is likely
of no concern to you.

Care
Charlie

What Charlie is trying to say in his own inimitable way is the presence
of heavy metals in Ironite(R) has resulted in its banning in Canada and
lawsuits in the United States due to the potential release of heavy
metals, most notably arsenic and lead.
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm


Yep, I bought a bag of Ironite about 10 or 15 years ago, before the word
got out about how nasty the stuff is. I poured the whole bag down a
well to get rid of it. ;-)

Bob

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........

Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin, Ironite is likely
of no concern to you.

Care
Charlie

What Charlie is trying to say in his own inimitable way is the presence
of heavy metals in Ironite(R) has resulted in its banning in Canada and
lawsuits in the United States due to the potential release of heavy
metals, most notably arsenic and lead.
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm
and with respect to Sevin
one Canadian environmental organization in a letter addressed to local
citizens cites some of the 'documented' effects of carbaryl.

1. It causes birth defects in mammals, especially dogs.
2. It worsens the condition of people with hypertension and people on
anti-depressant drugs.
3. It impairs the function of the pituitary gland, the thyroid gland,
and the reproductive system.
4. It causes hyperactivity and learning disabilities in mammals.
5. It could increase the chance of heart attack in people with weak
hearts.
6. The main break-down product, nitrosocarbaryl, which is easily
created in the human gut, is a potent cancer-causing agent.
7. It causes irreversible chromosomal damage to human DNA (the genes
in our cells).
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-sl...bre-sevin.html


OMG!!!!!!!!! No one said anything to me about that. I was told it was one
of the safest products to use. I'll throw the damn stuff out tomorrow.


At the veeeery least, Sevin is "extremely toxic" to bees. Spray or dust
with Sevin and you'll be doing the pollination of your squash yourself
or you won't have squash. Most of us in the gardening groups that ingest
the plants we grow, are organic gardeners because, in part, we don't
want to poison ourselves, or the environment. These two products seem
imminently capable of doing both.

Rest assured that you are not the first to propose them products and
most assuredly, you won't be the last.

Keep reading the posts here in rec.gardens and rec.gardens.edible, and
check out some books from the library, you'll get the hang of it.

Some titles that I would recommend:

Any book by
Rodale
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw...ipbooks&field-
keywords=Rodale&x=0&y=0

I have their gardening book from years ago. I think it's time I read it
again. But as I recall some of the organic methods we tried back in the
1960s did not work. I do recall companion planting for insect control was a
waste of time. We also purchased an organic insecticide that was useless.


How to Grow More Vegetables and Fruits
by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/How-Grow-More-...80087965/ref=s
r_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543192&sr=1-1

The Vegetable Gardener's Bible by Edward C. Smith
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543343&sr=1-1

The above are how-to books.

The book below explains healthy (organic) soil.

Teaming with Microbes by by Jeff Lowenfels &, Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210542894&sr= 1-1

The book below tells us why we are organic.

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210543426&sr=1-1

This is by no means a definitive list, and you will see other
recommendations in the news groups, but these books are a good place to
begin understanding your new hobby.

Thank you Billy. We've done some serious gardening, canning and freezing in
the past. We're kind of getting back into it now that we're both retired.

--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........

Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin, Ironite is likely
of no concern to you.

Should it be? Our soil is so alkaline it's recommended Ironite be used.


Care
Charlie

In article ,
"Katey Didd" wrote:

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........

Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin, Ironite is likely
of no concern to you.

Should it be? Our soil is so alkaline it's recommended Ironite be used.


Care
Charlie


Dispose of the Ironite in an ecological manner (the jerk next door is
always a good choice). Excuse me, I seem to be having a schizophrenic
moment. As I was saying, in an ecologically responsible manner, and use
sulfur powder or sphagnum moss to lower your soil's pH. The world will
thank you. Your community will thank you, and your metabolism will thank
you.
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

"Katey Didd" wrote in
:


Charlie wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 May 2008 21:52:26 -0500, "Katey Didd"
wrote:

Ironite.........

Uh oh...ironite. Of course, if you are using Sevin,
Ironite is likely of no concern to you.

Should it be? Our soil is so alkaline it's recommended
Ironite be used.

use powdered lime to counteract alkalinity. Ironite is nasty
stuff.
chemicals like Sevin should be used sparingly, if at all, as
well.
stick around & ask questions. we can help you move to a more
organic (& possibly less expensive) form of gardening.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.