In an earlier post I listed the varieties of tomatoes that I'm starting
from seed. I started the first four on April 1, one variety on April 5,
and I plan to start the last two today, April 6. There is a huge
difference in the rate of progress between the varieties so I thought I'd
post that info here. I define the start date as the day I put them in a
glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water overnight, then put them
on a wet paper towel placed between two plates. I add water to the towels
as needed to keep them wet (once or twice a day).

The group started on April 1 are listed in the order of growth rates,
from fastest to slowest,

Sun Gold Cherry By far the quickest, I have a plate full of inch
long green sprouts.

Cosmonaut Volkov Doing well, the sprouts are 1/2 long with some
green.

Black Prince Doing almost as well as the Volkovs, about 1/3
inch with just a hint of green.

Legend Just short roots, no green yet.

I'm going to put the Sun golds into peat pots today, I'll give the
Volkovs and Black Princes a couple of more days on the wet plates before
I put them in pots. The Legends might need another week.

These were just started yesterday so there is no info yet.
April 5
Black Sea Man

I'm going to start soaking these today, I'll put them on plates tomorrow
April 6
Italian Grape
Yellow Pear

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

In an earlier post I listed the varieties of tomatoes that I'm starting
from seed. I started the first four on April 1, one variety on April 5,
and I plan to start the last two today, April 6. There is a huge
difference in the rate of progress between the varieties so I thought I'd
post that info here. I define the start date as the day I put them in a
glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water overnight, then put them
on a wet paper towel placed between two plates. I add water to the towels
as needed to keep them wet (once or twice a day).

The group started on April 1 are listed in the order of growth rates,
from fastest to slowest,

Sun Gold Cherry By far the quickest, I have a plate full of inch
long green sprouts.

Cosmonaut Volkov Doing well, the sprouts are 1/2 long with some
green.

Black Prince Doing almost as well as the Volkovs, about 1/3
inch with just a hint of green.

Legend Just short roots, no green yet.

I'm going to put the Sun golds into peat pots today, I'll give the
Volkovs and Black Princes a couple of more days on the wet plates before
I put them in pots. The Legends might need another week.

These were just started yesterday so there is no info yet.
April 5
Black Sea Man

I'm going to start soaking these today, I'll put them on plates tomorrow
April 6
Italian Grape
Yellow Pear

Are saying you transplant sprouts? Never heard of that B4. I just
moisten small containers and provide bottom heat and light once up
usually ~4 days where they reside till about 6 inches tall and hopefully
stocky then placed out to permanent spot sometimes a cold frame in
chilly and gray. 3 ~ 4 weeks latter.

--
Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
"I have always looked upon decay as being just as wonderful
and rich an expression of life as growth" Henry Miller

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

In an earlier post I listed the varieties of tomatoes that I'm starting
from seed. I started the first four on April 1, one variety on April 5,
and I plan to start the last two today, April 6. There is a huge
difference in the rate of progress between the varieties so I thought I'd
post that info here. I define the start date as the day I put them in a
glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water overnight, then put them
on a wet paper towel placed between two plates. I add water to the towels
as needed to keep them wet (once or twice a day).

The group started on April 1 are listed in the order of growth rates,
from fastest to slowest,

Sun Gold Cherry By far the quickest, I have a plate full of inch
long green sprouts.

Cosmonaut Volkov Doing well, the sprouts are 1/2 long with some
green.

Black Prince Doing almost as well as the Volkovs, about 1/3
inch with just a hint of green.

Legend Just short roots, no green yet.

I'm going to put the Sun golds into peat pots today, I'll give the
Volkovs and Black Princes a couple of more days on the wet plates before
I put them in pots. The Legends might need another week.

These were just started yesterday so there is no info yet.
April 5
Black Sea Man

I'm going to start soaking these today, I'll put them on plates tomorrow
April 6
Italian Grape
Yellow Pear

Are saying you transplant sprouts? Never heard of that B4. I just
moisten small containers and provide bottom heat and light once up
usually ~4 days where they reside till about 6 inches tall and hopefully
stocky then placed out to permanent spot sometimes a cold frame in
chilly and gray. 3 ~ 4 weeks latter.

That's the way that I've been doing it, but "Creative propagation : a
grower's guide" by Peter Thompson:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...stripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=Creative+propagation&x=10&y=23
does it the way that the General is describing. The reasoning is to get
the individuals out before they weave their roots into a tangle. You
pick them up by their dicotyledons.
It should be in your local library. Take a peek at the chapter on
propagating by seed.

I'm looking at the 1992 edition from the library, but the 2005 edition
should arrive in the mail any day now.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:13:25 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

In an earlier post I listed the varieties of tomatoes that I'm
starting from seed. I started the first four on April 1, one variety
on April 5, and I plan to start the last two today, April 6. There is
a huge difference in the rate of progress between the varieties so I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day I
put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once or
twice a day).

The group started on April 1 are listed in the order of growth rates,
from fastest to slowest,

Sun Gold Cherry By far the quickest, I have a plate full
of inch
long green sprouts.

Cosmonaut Volkov Doing well, the sprouts are 1/2 long with some
green.

Black Prince Doing almost as well as the Volkovs,
about 1/3 inch
with just a hint of green.

Legend Just short roots, no green yet.

I'm going to put the Sun golds into peat pots today, I'll give the
Volkovs and Black Princes a couple of more days on the wet plates
before I put them in pots. The Legends might need another week.

These were just started yesterday so there is no info yet. April 5
Black Sea Man

I'm going to start soaking these today, I'll put them on plates
tomorrow April 6
Italian Grape
Yellow Pear

Are saying you transplant sprouts? Never heard of that B4. I just
moisten small containers and provide bottom heat and light once up
usually ~4 days where they reside till about 6 inches tall and
hopefully stocky then placed out to permanent spot sometimes a cold
frame in chilly and gray. 3 ~ 4 weeks latter.

That's the way that I've been doing it, but "Creative propagation : a
grower's guide" by Peter Thompson:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=Creative+propagation&x=10&y=23 does it the way that the
General is describing. The reasoning is to get the individuals out
before they weave their roots into a tangle. You pick them up by their
dicotyledons.
It should be in your local library. Take a peek at the chapter on
propagating by seed.

I'm looking at the 1992 edition from the library, but the 2005 edition
should arrive in the mail any day now.

I've been doing it this way since I was a child in the 60s. I don't
remember if I came up with this technique by myself or if it was
something I learned in grade school. It's a very fast and reliable way to
start seeds and it works for everything I've tried including a few things
I grew in college, the less said about those the better but I will note
that the statute of limitations ran out 35 years ago.

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:13:25 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

In an earlier post I listed the varieties of tomatoes that I'm
starting from seed. I started the first four on April 1, one variety
on April 5, and I plan to start the last two today, April 6. There is
a huge difference in the rate of progress between the varieties so I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day I
put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once or
twice a day).

The group started on April 1 are listed in the order of growth rates,
from fastest to slowest,

Sun Gold Cherry By far the quickest, I have a plate full
of inch
long green sprouts.

Cosmonaut Volkov Doing well, the sprouts are 1/2 long with some
green.

Black Prince Doing almost as well as the Volkovs,
about 1/3 inch
with just a hint of green.

Legend Just short roots, no green yet.

I'm going to put the Sun golds into peat pots today, I'll give the
Volkovs and Black Princes a couple of more days on the wet plates
before I put them in pots. The Legends might need another week.

These were just started yesterday so there is no info yet. April 5
Black Sea Man

I'm going to start soaking these today, I'll put them on plates
tomorrow April 6
Italian Grape
Yellow Pear

Are saying you transplant sprouts? Never heard of that B4. I just
moisten small containers and provide bottom heat and light once up
usually ~4 days where they reside till about 6 inches tall and
hopefully stocky then placed out to permanent spot sometimes a cold
frame in chilly and gray. 3 ~ 4 weeks latter.

That's the way that I've been doing it, but "Creative propagation : a
grower's guide" by Peter Thompson:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=Creative+propagation&x=10&y=23 does it the way that the
General is describing. The reasoning is to get the individuals out
before they weave their roots into a tangle. You pick them up by their
dicotyledons.
It should be in your local library. Take a peek at the chapter on
propagating by seed.

I'm looking at the 1992 edition from the library, but the 2005 edition
should arrive in the mail any day now.

I've been doing it this way since I was a child in the 60s. I don't
remember if I came up with this technique by myself or if it was
something I learned in grade school. It's a very fast and reliable way to
start seeds and it works for everything I've tried including a few things
I grew in college, the less said about those the better but I will note
that the statute of limitations ran out 35 years ago.

You are expanding my mind via text a good thing to ones own roots aka
knowledge stirred about. Thompson book on order.

Anyone else doing this technique ?

Thank You General !

--
Bill Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
"I have always looked upon decay as being just as wonderful
and rich an expression of life as growth" Henry Miller

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:13:25 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

In an earlier post I listed the varieties of tomatoes that I'm starting
from seed. I started the first four on April 1, one variety on April 5,
and I plan to start the last two today, April 6. There is a huge
difference in the rate of progress between the varieties so I thought I'd
post that info here. I define the start date as the day I put them in a
glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water overnight, then put them
on a wet paper towel placed between two plates. I add water to the towels
as needed to keep them wet (once or twice a day).

The group started on April 1 are listed in the order of growth rates,
from fastest to slowest,

Sun Gold Cherry By far the quickest, I have a plate full of inch
long green sprouts.

Cosmonaut Volkov Doing well, the sprouts are 1/2 long with some
green.

Black Prince Doing almost as well as the Volkovs, about 1/3
inch with just a hint of green.

Legend Just short roots, no green yet.

I'm going to put the Sun golds into peat pots today, I'll give the
Volkovs and Black Princes a couple of more days on the wet plates before
I put them in pots. The Legends might need another week.

These were just started yesterday so there is no info yet.
April 5
Black Sea Man

I'm going to start soaking these today, I'll put them on plates tomorrow
April 6
Italian Grape
Yellow Pear

Are saying you transplant sprouts? Never heard of that B4. I just
moisten small containers and provide bottom heat and light once up
usually ~4 days where they reside till about 6 inches tall and hopefully
stocky then placed out to permanent spot sometimes a cold frame in
chilly and gray. 3 ~ 4 weeks latter.

That's the way that I've been doing it, but "Creative propagation : a
grower's guide" by Peter Thompson:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...stripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=Creative+propagation&x=10&y=23
does it the way that the General is describing. The reasoning is to get
the individuals out before they weave their roots into a tangle. You
pick them up by their dicotyledons.
It should be in your local library. Take a peek at the chapter on
propagating by seed.

I'm looking at the 1992 edition from the library, but the 2005 edition
should arrive in the mail any day now.

That sounds like a great idea. I think I will try that on the next
seeds I start and especially some of the harder ones to get
germinated.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day I
put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once or
twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do this to
grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays of seedling mix
and pricking them out when big enough?

David

On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day I
put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once or
twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do this to
grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays of seedling
mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots, and
you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know that that
the plant is alive.

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day I
put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once or
twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do this to
grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays of seedling mix
and pricking them out when big enough?

David

Sorry, David, I was attributing the picking out of the freshly
germinated seeds for transplanting, not the paper towel routine to the
book "Creative Propagation".

This is what Peter Thompson said in his 1992 edition of his book. (Let
me know, if you find any typos.)

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...stripbooks&fie
ld-keywords=Creative+Propagation&x=15&y=21

ANNUALS AND BIENNIALS FROM SEED

Effects of Soil Fertility on Seed GerminationSuccessful germination
seldom depends on the fertility of the compost, but may sometimes be
reduced by highly fertile conditions, and especially by the presence in
the surrounding soil of high concentrations of inorganic salts or other
chemical compounds. Traditionally, seed composts contain smaller
quantities of added fertilisers than potting composts, but this is nor.
a practical necessity for germinating the seeds of most annuals.
Nurseries, where very large quantities of compost are used, can make
worthwhile economies by reducing the fertilisers added to the composts
in which seeds are sown. On a smaller scale the use of two different
composts, one for sowing seeds, and the other for growing on seedlings,
is itself likely to be a source of waste, and almost always it would be
more economical either to use a dual-purpose compost, or to use a
standard potting compost for both purposes.

Traditionally, seeds are sown by scattering them over the surface of a
suitable compost, and then covering them with a layer of sifted compost,
applied very scantily, or more thickly, according to the size of the
seed sown. The method has been used very successfully by gardeners for
many centuries, and there can be no doubt that it has stood the test of
time. Nevertheless, it does not always produce good results, and often
fails to provide seeds with the best possible conditions in which to
germinate and develop into healthy seedlings.

The compost used, whether based on peat or a fibrous loam, is itself the
cause of some of these problems. The physical qualities required to
provide good drainage, high water-holding capacity, good porosity to
encourage oxygen diffusion, and the stability needed to maintain these
features, are most easily obtained from a compost with a high proportion
of coarse, fibrous particles in its composition. A coarse-grained
compost of this kind is not so good for seeds while they are imbibing
water, and for very young seedlings establishing the first traces of a
root system. The usual solution to this problem is to use a fibrous,
relatively coarse compost as a base; to level its surface, and perhaps
top it with a light layer of sifted compost before sowing seeds; and
finally to cover the seeds themselves with a light topping of sifted
compost.

The seeds are sown in a layer of very fine compost from which all the
large and more fibrous particles have been removed, and this is the part
which is most likely to cause problems. If water is applied too-
vigorously the seeds in it become water-borne and start to float—most
will end up in a pile in one corner of the container. It is not easy to
apply the final covering over the seeds evenly, or even to judge its
exact depth, without a good deal of experience and confidence. The layer
of dust-like particles is not at all stable: loam-based composts tend to
dissolve into an ooze of mud, or silt; peat-based composts to become
dust-dry very rapidly or, if overwatered, to become slimy, the surface
clogged with minute algae. Seedlings emerging in this compact layer,
liable to drain poorly, become susceptible to stress, vulnerable to
invasion by soij-born fungi and may start to damp off. These traditional
ways of sowing seeds are not

55


easy for part-time gardeners to manage; small errors or misjudgements
quickly lead to problems, even under ideal conditions, and when
conditions are less than ideal—long spells of damp and low light in
winter, bright sunshine and high temperatures in summer, or seeds which
delay their germination, perhaps for weeks—it can tax the skills even of
experienced gardeners to produce a satisfactory stand of seedlings.

Standard Method of Sowing Seeds

These problems can be avoided by sowing seeds in ways which are much
easier to manage. The simplest method is based on the principle that a
seed compost should consist of two parts: a lower layer which provides
space for the roots to develop, and a reservoir of water and nutrients
to support their growth, and an upper layer to accommodate the seeds and
provide them with ideal conditions in which they can germinate, and
seedlings can become established. Any good quality potting compost can
be used for the lower layer, but this should be free-draining, and
contain high proportions of fibre to enable it to hold water like
ftasponge, and yet drain freely to dispose of surplus water. The upper
layer must consist of a material which is porous and water-retentive,
but free-draining and very stable. Loams and peats do not match these
requirements and are unsuitable in any form. Grits and sands dry out too
rapidly and are not very i satisfactory. An ideal material is a porous
grit (similar in consistency to the debris of heavily crushed clay
flower pots). Crushed clay pots have been included in recipes for
potting composts from time to time in the past but are not available to
many of us today. Alternative materials which are easier to obtain
include:

(a) Calcined clay minerals of the kind that are used for cat litter, or
soaking up oil spillages from garage floors, or marketed from time to
time for horticultural use.
(b) Horticultural vermiculite or perlite.
(c) Crushed brick, marketed as a dressing for hard tennis courts.
(d) Crushed tufa, sifted to remove dust.

All of these have the right consistency, they are stable materials which
retain their integrity for a long time and are easy to manage, they are
inert, they hold water and yet drain freely, and produce an environment
for seeds which is moist, well-aerated, and easily penetrated by the
emerging plumules and developing roots.

In practice, containers in which seeds are to be sown are prepared by
two-thirds filling them with potting compost, to provide the lower
layer. The topping of porous grit or vermiculite is then added to fill
the container, apart from a gap below the rim about C.5 cm (I in) deep
to allow for watering. Very small seeds, such as lobelias and begonias,
are scattered over the surface and allowed to sink into the upper layers
of the grit when they are watered;

Figure 5.3 Seeds should always be sown in the smallest container that
will hold the number of plants needed. A gritty well-drained compost
reduces risks of damping off, and makes management easier.

57

medium-sized seeds, which would include pansies and cabbages, are
scattered evenly over the surface, and then 'ploughed' in using a pencil
or pointed stick to break up the surface and bury the seeds beneath it.
Sweet peas, lupins and other larger seeds are sown on a shallow bed of
the porous grit immediately above the lower layer of compost, and more
grit is added to bury them about 1.5 cm (^ in) beneath the surface.

When seeds have been sown in this way their management becomes extremely
simple. They should be covered until they start to germinate, and
nothing does this better than sheets of expanded polystyrene—ceiling
tiles can be used, the pot holders used to deliver pot-plants to
florists shops, or sheets of salvaged packing material—all can easily be
cut to exactly the size required, and the material does not provide a
cold surface on which water condenses and drips on to the seeds below.
When seedlings emerge these sheets should be removed each morning and
replaced each evening, until the seedlings grow up and come into contact
with the polystyrene. The seeds and young seedlings must never be
allowed to become dry, or suffer stress from lack of water. If in any
doubt they should always be watered copiously, using a watering can with
a fine rose, from above. There is little danger of causing damage from
overwatering because the layer in which the seeds are sown drains freely
and retains no surplus water. Later, as seedlings develop, the parts
which are most vulnerable to the fungal infection which cause them to
damp off are also located in the porous, free-draining upper layer and
are much less likely to suffer from these problems, even with less than
skilful watering.

It is well worth making an attempt to standardise the containers in
which seeds arc sown if this is at all possible, by choosing a
particular shape and size, appropriate to the number of seedlings
needed. Plastic containers are easier to manage than clay ones, and a
square cross section is more economical than a round one. Drainage is
vitally important, both through the compost surrounding the seeds and
out of the base of the container, because much the easiest system of
management is to water frequently and allow surplus water to drain away.
In normal circumstances the smallest square section plastic container,
which will accommodate sufficient seedlings, is the right one to use. A
small square plastic pot with a surface area of about 50 sq cm (i.e. 7x7
cm) (7 1/2 sq in, 2 3/4 X 2 3/4) will hold about 100 seedlings of all
the more finely built bedding plants, up to the time they are ready to
be pricked out, about 50 African marigolds and something like 25
seedling dahlias. Fifteen of these pots will fit into the space occupied
by a single seed tray and the latter, which is constructed to hold
thousands of seedlings at this stage of their development, is almost
always wastefully large for the purpose.

Pricking Out Seedlings

Traditionally, whether plastic pots or seed trays are being used, seeds
are sown quite thickly, but not too thickly, and soon after they have
germinated the seedlings are transplanted into another container,
individually or in small groups, by an operation known as pricking out.
At this stage each seedling is spaced out to give it room to develop and
a seed tray becomes an appropriate, convenient and practical choice.
Seedlings should be pricked out at the first moment when they can
possibly be handled. Normally this is when the seed

58


leaves, known as cotyledons, have just become fully expanded—a prospect
which dismays many novice gardeners. It appears to be impossible to
handle something so small and certainly absolutely impossible to handle
it without crushing it to death. In fact these tiny seedlings are
surprisingly easy to handle, holding them firmly by their newly expanded
seed leaves, and they suffer much less damage than they would if
attempts were made to move them later when they appear to be more
robust. Many seedlings produce roots which grow so rapidly and strongly
that any delay results in damage to the roots and makes it much more
difficult to place the seedlings quickly and neatly into their new
positions, using a small pointed stick to open up planting holes and
guiding each seedling into it by hand.

The aim should be to keep these little plants in seed trays only for as
long as they need to grow large enough to establish themselves
successfully when planted out in their final positions in the garden.
Wide spacings between seedings pricked out into seed trays waste space
and are not helpful. A standard seed tray should hold about 40 plants of
strong-growing annuals like dahlias; moderate growers like snapdragons
and verbena about 70, and small tufty plants like alyssum and lobelia
can be packed in so that each tray holds about 90 clusters of small
plants. Seed trays are large objects which occupy a great deal of
valuable protected space in springtime, and lap up enormous quantities
of expensive compost, but too many gardeners are not aware of their
potential capacity, and are reluctant to pack them with as many plants
as they can hold.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day
I put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once
or twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do
this to grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays
of seedling mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots,
and you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know
that that the plant is alive.

Pricking out from a tray has the same result in that you only work with
successful germinations so the labour content is the same. Trays have the
advantage that the seedling is in growing medium and thus getting nutrients
right from the start and it can put roots down and shoots up which can't
happen properly between paper. I am aware that nutrients are not required
at the start of the germination process but in a non-nutrient medium you
have to be on hand to plant them out before the food in the seed itself is
exhausted. In a nutrient medium it is getting fed and can commence
photosynthesis as soon as it is ready and you can afford to wait until the
seedling is larger and easier to handle before pricking out.


How often are you in the position where using every viable seed is
important? If I was given four rare heirloom seeds to grow out I might
consider using paper to baby each and every one. Typically you have many
more seeds than you need plants. Maybe I am missing something but I don't
see the benefit of growing between paper, seems like a lot of fiddling about
for no great gain.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day
I put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once
or twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do
this to grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays
of seedling mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots,
and you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know
that that the plant is alive.

Pricking out from a tray has the same result in that you only work with
successful germinations so the labour content is the same. Trays have the
advantage that the seedling is in growing medium and thus getting nutrients
right from the start and it can put roots down and shoots up which can't
happen properly between paper. I am aware that nutrients are not required
at the start of the germination process but in a non-nutrient medium you
have to be on hand to plant them out before the food in the seed itself is
exhausted. In a nutrient medium it is getting fed and can commence
photosynthesis as soon as it is ready and you can afford to wait until the
seedling is larger and easier to handle before pricking out.


How often are you in the position where using every viable seed is
important? If I was given four rare heirloom seeds to grow out I might
consider using paper to baby each and every one. Typically you have many
more seeds than you need plants. Maybe I am missing something but I don't
see the benefit of growing between paper, seems like a lot of fiddling about
for no great gain.

David

When you start multiple seeds in the same tiny cell, by the time that
they are big and sturdy, their roots have intertwined, and it can be a
real bitch to separate them. I know because that is the way I've done
it. I get 70% to 100% successful outcomes with my old way of
germination, but I'd like to improve it. Seems that you would also
reduce the shock of having many of the root hairs stripped off during
separation, leading to a more rapid development of the plant. With the
over all method, laid out by Thompson, you could also germinate more
seeds in a smaller area. The guy's a Pom, maybe your library has him.
Check it out.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
The Cook wrote:

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:50:04 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day
I put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once
or twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do
this to grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays
of seedling mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots,
and you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know
that that the plant is alive.

Pricking out from a tray has the same result in that you only work with
successful germinations so the labour content is the same. Trays have the
advantage that the seedling is in growing medium and thus getting
nutrients
right from the start and it can put roots down and shoots up which can't
happen properly between paper. I am aware that nutrients are not required
at the start of the germination process but in a non-nutrient medium you
have to be on hand to plant them out before the food in the seed itself is
exhausted. In a nutrient medium it is getting fed and can commence
photosynthesis as soon as it is ready and you can afford to wait until the
seedling is larger and easier to handle before pricking out.


How often are you in the position where using every viable seed is
important? If I was given four rare heirloom seeds to grow out I might
consider using paper to baby each and every one. Typically you have many
more seeds than you need plants. Maybe I am missing something but I don't
see the benefit of growing between paper, seems like a lot of fiddling
about
for no great gain.

David

When you start multiple seeds in the same tiny cell, by the time that
they are big and sturdy, their roots have intertwined, and it can be a
real bitch to separate them. I know because that is the way I've done
it. I get 70% to 100% successful outcomes with my old way of
germination, but I'd like to improve it. Seems that you would also
reduce the shock of having many of the root hairs stripped off during
separation, leading to a more rapid development of the plant. With the
over all method, laid out by Thompson, you could also germinate more
seeds in a smaller area. The guy's a Pom, maybe your library has him.
Check it out.


I don't put multiple seeds in a single cell. I use these from Lee
Valley. Start in the 72 cell starters for the first round and then
transplant into the 32 cell.

1 seed per cell? Do you save seed, use fresh seed, or left over seed
from previous years?

I use at least 3 seeds per cell, and if they are left over seeds, more.
The older the seed, the more I use, especially if it hasn't been
refrigerated. If I get multiple germinations, which happens often, I'd
separate the plants, when they had a few leaves on them by holding the
base of the plants between my thumb and index finger with the roots
draped down across my palm, and then gently hose the dirt off starting
from the bottom of the roots, as if you were combing out long hair.

It seems more efficient to me, in that I get many plants started in a
short time. I have one small 2', 2 tube T5 over a heating pad, and a 4'
T5 to nurture the seedling with. Sometimes it gets crowded, like this
year when I had 6 trays on 2 per 8 hour shifts, circulating under the 4'
T5. Finally the weather improved enough for me to get two trays outside,
and I've been planting the onions, lettuce, and beets. The tomatoes and
cabbage and squash are still out there. I'm prepping the tomato beds
today. They should be ready in 2 weeks. I may need to get some 6' spaced
drip line, so that I can squeeze the tomatoes close together. Typically,
I've spaced them 2' apart, but the "Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward
C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1
says that on supports, they can be 15" apart. I have 12 varieties among
the 16 tomatoes that I want to plant.

I need to get the outside pots in the ground so that I can rotate more
plants to the outside, and start germinating flowers and herbs.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:50:04 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day
I put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once
or twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do
this to grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays
of seedling mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots,
and you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know
that that the plant is alive.

Pricking out from a tray has the same result in that you only work with
successful germinations so the labour content is the same. Trays have the
advantage that the seedling is in growing medium and thus getting nutrients
right from the start and it can put roots down and shoots up which can't
happen properly between paper. I am aware that nutrients are not required
at the start of the germination process but in a non-nutrient medium you
have to be on hand to plant them out before the food in the seed itself is
exhausted. In a nutrient medium it is getting fed and can commence
photosynthesis as soon as it is ready and you can afford to wait until the
seedling is larger and easier to handle before pricking out.


How often are you in the position where using every viable seed is
important? If I was given four rare heirloom seeds to grow out I might
consider using paper to baby each and every one. Typically you have many
more seeds than you need plants. Maybe I am missing something but I don't
see the benefit of growing between paper, seems like a lot of fiddling about
for no great gain.

David

When you start multiple seeds in the same tiny cell, by the time that
they are big and sturdy, their roots have intertwined, and it can be a
real bitch to separate them. I know because that is the way I've done
it. I get 70% to 100% successful outcomes with my old way of
germination, but I'd like to improve it. Seems that you would also
reduce the shock of having many of the root hairs stripped off during
separation, leading to a more rapid development of the plant. With the
over all method, laid out by Thompson, you could also germinate more
seeds in a smaller area. The guy's a Pom, maybe your library has him.
Check it out.


I don't put multiple seeds in a single cell. I use these from Lee
Valley. Start in the 72 cell starters for the first round and then
transplant into the 32 cell.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
The Cook wrote:

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:50:04 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the day
I put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once
or twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do
this to grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays
of seedling mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots,
and you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know
that that the plant is alive.

Pricking out from a tray has the same result in that you only work with
successful germinations so the labour content is the same. Trays have
the
advantage that the seedling is in growing medium and thus getting
nutrients
right from the start and it can put roots down and shoots up which can't
happen properly between paper. I am aware that nutrients are not
required
at the start of the germination process but in a non-nutrient medium you
have to be on hand to plant them out before the food in the seed itself
is
exhausted. In a nutrient medium it is getting fed and can commence
photosynthesis as soon as it is ready and you can afford to wait until
the
seedling is larger and easier to handle before pricking out.


How often are you in the position where using every viable seed is
important? If I was given four rare heirloom seeds to grow out I might
consider using paper to baby each and every one. Typically you have
many
more seeds than you need plants. Maybe I am missing something but I
don't
see the benefit of growing between paper, seems like a lot of fiddling
about
for no great gain.

David

When you start multiple seeds in the same tiny cell, by the time that
they are big and sturdy, their roots have intertwined, and it can be a
real bitch to separate them. I know because that is the way I've done
it. I get 70% to 100% successful outcomes with my old way of
germination, but I'd like to improve it. Seems that you would also
reduce the shock of having many of the root hairs stripped off during
separation, leading to a more rapid development of the plant. With the
over all method, laid out by Thompson, you could also germinate more
seeds in a smaller area. The guy's a Pom, maybe your library has him.
Check it out.


I don't put multiple seeds in a single cell. I use these from Lee
Valley. Start in the 72 cell starters for the first round and then
transplant into the 32 cell.

1 seed per cell? Do you save seed, use fresh seed, or left over seed
from previous years?

I use at least 3 seeds per cell, and if they are left over seeds, more.
The older the seed, the more I use, especially if it hasn't been
refrigerated. If I get multiple germinations, which happens often, I'd
separate the plants, when they had a few leaves on them by holding the
base of the plants between my thumb and index finger with the roots
draped down across my palm, and then gently hose the dirt off starting
from the bottom of the roots, as if you were combing out long hair.

It seems more efficient to me, in that I get many plants started in a
short time. I have one small 2', 2 tube T5 over a heating pad, and a 4'
T5 to nurture the seedling with. Sometimes it gets crowded, like this
year when I had 6 trays on 2 per 8 hour shifts, circulating under the 4'
T5. Finally the weather improved enough for me to get two trays outside,
and I've been planting the onions, lettuce, and beets. The tomatoes and
cabbage and squash are still out there. I'm prepping the tomato beds
today. They should be ready in 2 weeks. I may need to get some 6' spaced
drip line, so that I can squeeze the tomatoes close together. Typically,
I've spaced them 2' apart, but the "Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward
C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1
says that on supports, they can be 15" apart. I have 12 varieties among
the 16 tomatoes that I want to plant.

I need to get the outside pots in the ground so that I can rotate more
plants to the outside, and start germinating flowers and herbs.

Currently I am doing the same as susan, using 72 cell trays. I am using
newly purchased seed. My friend uses the 144 cell trays (same space as
72 tray). I tend to have an eighty percent germination rate. Next year I
may try the 144 cell trays. Also next year I am going to try my hand at
seed saving. New learning curve coming up. So I may try other techniques
if my success rate is much lower or have a need for more plants in a
smaller space.

Depending on the seed size. I tend to place one seed per cell. Smaller
seeds I tend to put in more than one seed and use scissors cut those
competing plants out (Does not disturb roots). Time efficient but not
plant efficient.

I got the 2005 Thompson book last month - still reading during free time.
I tried looking through the book for the paper towel method for starting
new plants. I could not find it. It may be in the book as I continue
reading it. Just got done with Chapter 4. Basic Techniques with Seeds
and Cuttings is Chapter 5.

Sometimes older books can be useful. Please let us know if the newer
book is an updated version of the older one or something new.

--
Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.

In article
,
"Dan L." wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
The Cook wrote:

On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:50:04 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:41:05 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
I
thought I'd post that info here. I define the start date as the
day
I put them in a glass to soak. My technique is to soak in water
overnight, then put them on a wet paper towel placed between two
plates. I add water to the towels as needed to keep them wet (once
or twice a day).


This method is used to display the progress of growing seedlings
for
eductaional purposes but I don't understand why you would you do
this to grow the plants. What is wrong with starting them in trays
of seedling mix and pricking them out when big enough?

David

It maximizes yield because you only put growing seeds into the pots,
and you don't have to put more then one in a pot because you know
that that the plant is alive.

Pricking out from a tray has the same result in that you only work
with
successful germinations so the labour content is the same. Trays have
the
advantage that the seedling is in growing medium and thus getting
nutrients
right from the start and it can put roots down and shoots up which
can't
happen properly between paper. I am aware that nutrients are not
required
at the start of the germination process but in a non-nutrient medium
you
have to be on hand to plant them out before the food in the seed
itself
is
exhausted. In a nutrient medium it is getting fed and can commence
photosynthesis as soon as it is ready and you can afford to wait until
the
seedling is larger and easier to handle before pricking out.


How often are you in the position where using every viable seed is
important? If I was given four rare heirloom seeds to grow out I
might
consider using paper to baby each and every one. Typically you have
many
more seeds than you need plants. Maybe I am missing something but I
don't
see the benefit of growing between paper, seems like a lot of fiddling
about
for no great gain.

David

When you start multiple seeds in the same tiny cell, by the time that
they are big and sturdy, their roots have intertwined, and it can be a
real bitch to separate them. I know because that is the way I've done
it. I get 70% to 100% successful outcomes with my old way of
germination, but I'd like to improve it. Seems that you would also
reduce the shock of having many of the root hairs stripped off during
separation, leading to a more rapid development of the plant. With the
over all method, laid out by Thompson, you could also germinate more
seeds in a smaller area. The guy's a Pom, maybe your library has him.
Check it out.


I don't put multiple seeds in a single cell. I use these from Lee
Valley. Start in the 72 cell starters for the first round and then
transplant into the 32 cell.

1 seed per cell? Do you save seed, use fresh seed, or left over seed
from previous years?

I use at least 3 seeds per cell, and if they are left over seeds, more.
The older the seed, the more I use, especially if it hasn't been
refrigerated. If I get multiple germinations, which happens often, I'd
separate the plants, when they had a few leaves on them by holding the
base of the plants between my thumb and index finger with the roots
draped down across my palm, and then gently hose the dirt off starting
from the bottom of the roots, as if you were combing out long hair.

It seems more efficient to me, in that I get many plants started in a
short time. I have one small 2', 2 tube T5 over a heating pad, and a 4'
T5 to nurture the seedling with. Sometimes it gets crowded, like this
year when I had 6 trays on 2 per 8 hour shifts, circulating under the 4'
T5. Finally the weather improved enough for me to get two trays outside,
and I've been planting the onions, lettuce, and beets. The tomatoes and
cabbage and squash are still out there. I'm prepping the tomato beds
today. They should be ready in 2 weeks. I may need to get some 6' spaced
drip line, so that I can squeeze the tomatoes close together. Typically,
I've spaced them 2' apart, but the "Vegetable Gardener' Bible" by Edward
C. Smith.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetable-Gard...Gardening/dp/1
580172121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815454&sr=1-1
says that on supports, they can be 15" apart. I have 12 varieties among
the 16 tomatoes that I want to plant.

I need to get the outside pots in the ground so that I can rotate more
plants to the outside, and start germinating flowers and herbs.

Currently I am doing the same as susan, using 72 cell trays. I am using
newly purchased seed. My friend uses the 144 cell trays (same space as
72 tray). I tend to have an eighty percent germination rate. Next year I
may try the 144 cell trays. Also next year I am going to try my hand at
seed saving. New learning curve coming up. So I may try other techniques
if my success rate is much lower or have a need for more plants in a
smaller space.

Depending on the seed size. I tend to place one seed per cell. Smaller
seeds I tend to put in more than one seed and use scissors cut those
competing plants out (Does not disturb roots). Time efficient but not
plant efficient.

I got the 2005 Thompson book last month - still reading during free time.
I tried looking through the book for the paper towel method for starting
new plants. I could not find it.
That's not in the book. That's the General's technique.
It may be in the book as I continue
reading it. Just got done with Chapter 4. Basic Techniques with Seeds
and Cuttings is Chapter 5.

Sometimes older books can be useful. Please let us know if the newer
book is an updated version of the older one or something new.
You got it.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html