My wife and I are absolutely not knowledgeable gardeners; our back yard is
planted with perennials and shrubs selected mainly for appearance,
hardiness and whim (I got three gas plants, based solely on their name),
and we manage to keep things alive and pruned to our satisfaction.

A few years ago, we set aside the one small sunny spot for growing
tomatoes and basil. Each year we've tilled the area by hand, worked in
some manure-based soil amendment, planted a few plants we picked up at
the garden center and were happy with the result.

This year, the tomatoes died, and the basil is stunted.

My suspicion, and the consensus at my wife's office, is that we
introduced some sort of blight, either from the purchased plants or the
soil amendment.

What can we do to this plot of death so that we might get something to
grow next year? Is there any quick fix for this year? Our growing season
is terribly short here.


--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN

In article ,
Bert Hyman wrote:

My wife and I are absolutely not knowledgeable gardeners; our back yard is
planted with perennials and shrubs selected mainly for appearance,
hardiness and whim (I got three gas plants, based solely on their name),
and we manage to keep things alive and pruned to our satisfaction.

A few years ago, we set aside the one small sunny spot for growing
tomatoes and basil. Each year we've tilled the area by hand, worked in
some manure-based soil amendment, planted a few plants we picked up at
the garden center and were happy with the result.

This year, the tomatoes died, and the basil is stunted.

My suspicion, and the consensus at my wife's office, is that we
introduced some sort of blight, either from the purchased plants or the
soil amendment.

What can we do to this plot of death so that we might get something to
grow next year? Is there any quick fix for this year? Our growing season
is terribly short here.

I'm guessing that your plot is screwed for 3 to 5 years. In any event,
the only thing you can do with confidence is to lay down a sheet of
fairly thick vinyl and put a raised garden on the site with fresh soil.
Do you have any pictures of the tomatoes and basil, or can you describe
how they looked? Did your tomatoes look like
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/TomatoProblems.htm
or
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf

Are your stunted basil forming black lesions on their stems?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In

Billy wrote:

I'm guessing that your plot is screwed for 3 to 5 years. In any event,
the only thing you can do with confidence is to lay down a sheet of
fairly thick vinyl and put a raised garden on the site with fresh
soil.

That's a good idea, even after things might have healed; that would give
us a more controlled environment.

Do you have any pictures of the tomatoes and basil, or can you
describe how they looked? Did your tomatoes look like
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/TomatoProblems.htm
or
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf

They look almost exactly like Fig 1. of the Iowa State publication,
illustrating "Septoria leaf spot."

Are your stunted basil forming black lesions on their stems?

No. The basil doesn't actually look diseased; it's simply not
developing. So far as I can tell, the plants look exactly like they did
when we bought them a few weeks ago.

Well, it's still early enough in the year that we might be able to get
something going in containers or elsewhere in the yard. A summer without
tomatoes & basil is not something I want to look forward to.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN

In m
wrote:

Don't be too quick to conclude your veggies to be diseased. You made
no mention of what other veggies might be growing in that plot and how
they are doing. If you've raised the same few kinds of plants in the
same small area for a few years, your plants may be suffering a
nutrient deficiency. ...

You raise an important point. My wife reports that she uses an 11-15-11
granular fertilizer. I can't say exactly how much, or exactly how it's
used, since my involvement in the project is mainly digging and hauling,
but I trust that she's using it as directed.

If you have the wherewithal, by all means, start some new
container plants in new soil but you might be doing yourself a favor
to take an evening and really study any of the links below that
interest you.

Thanks for the links.

Much of the information is redundant and repetitive but studying the
images may help you identify an easily-cured deficiency that responds
positively to the "three-day" test (in general, that's how long you
should wait for a visible response to fast-release corrections).

The U of Mn's extension service has a soil testing service, and our
county has an open plant diagnostic clinic every week that we can use if
we can't arrive at a conclusion ourselves.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN

The basil not growing sounds like nights have been too cold. Did you
have a late frost overnight? Did the tomato leaves turn darker green
and limp, kind of like they were stir fried or blanched in hot water?

Una

In (Una) wrote:

The basil not growing sounds like nights have been too cold. Did you
have a late frost overnight?

We've been having unseasonably warm weather lately, which is why the
tomatoes went in a couple of weeks earlier than normal; it hasn't been
below 50 since they went in.

Did the tomato leaves turn darker green and limp, kind of like they
were stir fried or blanched in hot water?

Actually, they sometimes look a bit like that during the heat of the
day, but perk up in the evening, looking their best in the morning.

Until they curled up and died, that is.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN

In article ,
Bert Hyman wrote:

In

Billy wrote:

I'm guessing that your plot is screwed for 3 to 5 years. In any event,
the only thing you can do with confidence is to lay down a sheet of
fairly thick vinyl and put a raised garden on the site with fresh
soil.

That's a good idea, even after things might have healed; that would give
us a more controlled environment.

Do you have any pictures of the tomatoes and basil, or can you
describe how they looked? Did your tomatoes look like
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/TomatoProblems.htm
or
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf

They look almost exactly like Fig 1. of the Iowa State publication,
illustrating "Septoria leaf spot."

The pictures in http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A2606.PDF
seem to be a little better.
It looks like you have an experiment to do, if you're up to it. Plant
one more tomato where you had your problem and follow the cultivating
practices outlined in the article.

http://attra.ncat.org/calendar/quest..._organic_contr
ols_are_there_for_sept
Fungicides, organic or not, have shown limited results with Septoria
leaf spot:
€ Copper and sulfur are fungicides approved by the National Organic
Program (NOP) Standards. Application of copper is a routine disease
control practice in organic tomato production in the eastern United
States. Copper functions both as a fungicide and bactericide and is
labeled (under the NOP) for anthracnose, bacterial speck, bacterial
spot, early and late blight, gray leaf mold, and septoria leaf spot.
Commercial products like Kocide 101� are used in both conventional and
organic tomato production for the control of Septoria leaf spot,
bacterial spot, bacterial speck, anthracnose, and early blight.
Applications are made on a 7-10 day schedule and the result may be 8-12
sprays per growing season. See the resource Eggplant, Pepper, and Tomato
XXIV; Septoria Leaf Spot by Howard Schwartz and David H. Gent of High
Plains IPM for information on applying specific copper fungicidal
controls. Note that the pesticides listed in this publication are not
all organic. Only some of the copper fungicides are permissible.
----

Other fungicides can be nasty to the environment or yourself,
one, Benomyl, is very toxic to earthworms and you'd probably need a
hazmat suit to apply it.

Are your stunted basil forming black lesions on their stems?

No. The basil doesn't actually look diseased; it's simply not
developing. So far as I can tell, the plants look exactly like they did
when we bought them a few weeks ago.

Well, it's still early enough in the year that we might be able to get
something going in containers or elsewhere in the yard. A summer without
tomatoes & basil is not something I want to look forward to.

I've just about given up growing basil in the ground, the potted basil
always does better. You might take pictures of your basil so that you
can compare them with your plants in a few weeks. Growth always seems to
happen slowly, especially when the plants are small.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bert Hyman wrote:

In

Billy wrote:

I'm guessing that your plot is screwed for 3 to 5 years. In any event,
the only thing you can do with confidence is to lay down a sheet of
fairly thick vinyl and put a raised garden on the site with fresh
soil.
That's a good idea, even after things might have healed; that would give
us a more controlled environment.

Do you have any pictures of the tomatoes and basil, or can you
describe how they looked? Did your tomatoes look like
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/TomatoProblems.htm
or
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf
They look almost exactly like Fig 1. of the Iowa State publication,
illustrating "Septoria leaf spot."

The pictures in http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A2606.PDF
seem to be a little better.
It looks like you have an experiment to do, if you're up to it. Plant
one more tomato where you had your problem and follow the cultivating
practices outlined in the article.

http://attra.ncat.org/calendar/quest..._organic_contr
ols_are_there_for_sept
Fungicides, organic or not, have shown limited results with Septoria
leaf spot:
€ Copper and sulfur are fungicides approved by the National Organic
Program (NOP) Standards. Application of copper is a routine disease
control practice in organic tomato production in the eastern United
States. Copper functions both as a fungicide and bactericide and is
labeled (under the NOP) for anthracnose, bacterial speck, bacterial
spot, early and late blight, gray leaf mold, and septoria leaf spot.
Commercial products like Kocide 101� are used in both conventional and
organic tomato production for the control of Septoria leaf spot,
bacterial spot, bacterial speck, anthracnose, and early blight.
Applications are made on a 7-10 day schedule and the result may be 8-12
sprays per growing season. See the resource Eggplant, Pepper, and Tomato
XXIV; Septoria Leaf Spot by Howard Schwartz and David H. Gent of High
Plains IPM for information on applying specific copper fungicidal
controls. Note that the pesticides listed in this publication are not
all organic. Only some of the copper fungicides are permissible.
----



How about fumigating with trichloronitromethane? It's pretty nasty,
but it breaks down and/or dissipates rapidly. It also goes by the
name chloropicrin.

Bob

On Wed, 26 May 2010 15:00:12 +0000, Bert Hyman wrote:

My wife and I are absolutely not knowledgeable gardeners; our back yard
is planted with perennials and shrubs selected mainly for appearance,
hardiness and whim (I got three gas plants, based solely on their name),
and we manage to keep things alive and pruned to our satisfaction.

A few years ago, we set aside the one small sunny spot for growing
tomatoes and basil. Each year we've tilled the area by hand, worked in
some manure-based soil amendment, planted a few plants we picked up at
the garden center and were happy with the result.

This year, the tomatoes died, and the basil is stunted.

My suspicion, and the consensus at my wife's office, is that we
introduced some sort of blight, either from the purchased plants or the
soil amendment.

What can we do to this plot of death so that we might get something to
grow next year? Is there any quick fix for this year? Our growing season
is terribly short here.

I'm spraying with copper fungicide this year to prevent early and late
blight, you might want to give it a try.

On Wed, 26 May 2010 17:03:20 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bert Hyman wrote:

In
news:wildbilly-

Billy wrote:

I'm guessing that your plot is screwed for 3 to 5 years. In any
event, the only thing you can do with confidence is to lay down a
sheet of fairly thick vinyl and put a raised garden on the site with
fresh soil.
That's a good idea, even after things might have healed; that would
give us a more controlled environment.

Do you have any pictures of the tomatoes and basil, or can you
describe how they looked? Did your tomatoes look like
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/TomatoProblems.htm
or
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf
They look almost exactly like Fig 1. of the Iowa State publication,
illustrating "Septoria leaf spot."

The pictures in http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A2606.PDF
seem to be a little better.
It looks like you have an experiment to do, if you're up to it. Plant
one more tomato where you had your problem and follow the cultivating
practices outlined in the article.

http://attra.ncat.org/calendar/question.php/2006/05/15/
what_organic_contr
ols_are_there_for_sept
Fungicides, organic or not, have shown limited results with Septoria
leaf spot:
€ Copper and sulfur are fungicides approved by the National Organic
Program (NOP) Standards. Application of copper is a routine disease
control practice in organic tomato production in the eastern United
States. Copper functions both as a fungicide and bactericide and is
labeled (under the NOP) for anthracnose, bacterial speck, bacterial
spot, early and late blight, gray leaf mold, and septoria leaf spot.
Commercial products like Kocide 101� are used in both conventional and
organic tomato production for the control of Septoria leaf spot,
bacterial spot, bacterial speck, anthracnose, and early blight.
Applications are made on a 7-10 day schedule and the result may be 8-12
sprays per growing season. See the resource Eggplant, Pepper, and
Tomato XXIV; Septoria Leaf Spot by Howard Schwartz and David H. Gent of
High Plains IPM for information on applying specific copper fungicidal
controls. Note that the pesticides listed in this publication are not
all organic. Only some of the copper fungicides are permissible. ----



How about fumigating with trichloronitromethane? It's pretty nasty, but
it breaks down and/or dissipates rapidly. It also goes by the name
chloropicrin.

Bob

Chloropicrin was used by the Germans in WW I, I sure as hell don't want
to treat my backyard like Ypres.

Bert Hyman wrote:
In m
wrote:

Don't be too quick to conclude your veggies to be diseased. You made
no mention of what other veggies might be growing in that plot and
how they are doing. If you've raised the same few kinds of plants in
the same small area for a few years, your plants may be suffering a
nutrient deficiency. ...

You raise an important point. My wife reports that she uses an
11-15-11 granular fertilizer. I can't say exactly how much, or
exactly how it's used, since my involvement in the project is mainly
digging and hauling, but I trust that she's using it as directed.

If you have the wherewithal, by all means, start some new
container plants in new soil but you might be doing yourself a favor
to take an evening and really study any of the links below that
interest you.

Thanks for the links.

Much of the information is redundant and repetitive but studying the
images may help you identify an easily-cured deficiency that responds
positively to the "three-day" test (in general, that's how long you
should wait for a visible response to fast-release corrections).

The U of Mn's extension service has a soil testing service, and our
county has an open plant diagnostic clinic every week that we can use
if we can't arrive at a conclusion ourselves.

I think Balvenieman makes a good point, the other guys are assuming your
conclusion about contamination and going for the nukes, even if reluctantly.
Unless I saw obvious signs of pathogens I would not jump to that conclusion.

David

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
Bert Hyman wrote:
In m
wrote:

Don't be too quick to conclude your veggies to be diseased. You made
no mention of what other veggies might be growing in that plot and
how they are doing. If you've raised the same few kinds of plants in
the same small area for a few years, your plants may be suffering a
nutrient deficiency. ...

You raise an important point. My wife reports that she uses an
11-15-11 granular fertilizer. I can't say exactly how much, or
exactly how it's used, since my involvement in the project is mainly
digging and hauling, but I trust that she's using it as directed.

If you have the wherewithal, by all means, start some new
container plants in new soil but you might be doing yourself a favor
to take an evening and really study any of the links below that
interest you.

Thanks for the links.

Much of the information is redundant and repetitive but studying the
images may help you identify an easily-cured deficiency that responds
positively to the "three-day" test (in general, that's how long you
should wait for a visible response to fast-release corrections).

The U of Mn's extension service has a soil testing service, and our
county has an open plant diagnostic clinic every week that we can use
if we can't arrive at a conclusion ourselves.

I think Balvenieman makes a good point, the other guys are assuming your
conclusion about contamination and going for the nukes, even if
reluctantly. Unless I saw obvious signs of pathogens I would not jump to
that conclusion.

The first thing I'd do would be to find another spot and cultivate that.
There's only be one mild mention of the problems of trying to grow the same
plants over and over again in the one plot of soil. Read up about crop
rotation and why that is important (and supposedly even more so if you're
not an organic gardener) and then start another bed in another place and
continue to do that every couple of years before you go back to the first
spot again.

In article ,
zxcvbob wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
Bert Hyman wrote:

In

Billy wrote:

I'm guessing that your plot is screwed for 3 to 5 years. In any event,
the only thing you can do with confidence is to lay down a sheet of
fairly thick vinyl and put a raised garden on the site with fresh
soil.
That's a good idea, even after things might have healed; that would give
us a more controlled environment.

Do you have any pictures of the tomatoes and basil, or can you
describe how they looked? Did your tomatoes look like
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetablepatch/a/TomatoProblems.htm
or
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf
They look almost exactly like Fig 1. of the Iowa State publication,
illustrating "Septoria leaf spot."

The pictures in http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A2606.PDF
seem to be a little better.
It looks like you have an experiment to do, if you're up to it. Plant
one more tomato where you had your problem and follow the cultivating
practices outlined in the article.

http://attra.ncat.org/calendar/quest..._organic_contr
ols_are_there_for_sept
Fungicides, organic or not, have shown limited results with Septoria
leaf spot:
¤ Copper and sulfur are fungicides approved by the National Organic
Program (NOP) Standards. Application of copper is a routine disease
control practice in organic tomato production in the eastern United
States. Copper functions both as a fungicide and bactericide and is
labeled (under the NOP) for anthracnose, bacterial speck, bacterial
spot, early and late blight, gray leaf mold, and septoria leaf spot.
Commercial products like Kocide 101? are used in both conventional and
organic tomato production for the control of Septoria leaf spot,
bacterial spot, bacterial speck, anthracnose, and early blight.
Applications are made on a 7-10 day schedule and the result may be 8-12
sprays per growing season. See the resource Eggplant, Pepper, and Tomato
XXIV; Septoria Leaf Spot by Howard Schwartz and David H. Gent of High
Plains IPM for information on applying specific copper fungicidal
controls. Note that the pesticides listed in this publication are not
all organic. Only some of the copper fungicides are permissible.
----



How about fumigating with trichloronitromethane? It's pretty nasty,
but it breaks down and/or dissipates rapidly. It also goes by the
name chloropicrin.

Bob

Just no best place to start in describing this as a horrible idea.
Chloropicrin is related to the WWI gas, phosgene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloropicrin
It works on people by destroying the alveoli in the lungs.

To risk this to treat Septoria leaf spot in the face of the National
Sustainable Agriculture Information Service saying "fungicides, organic
or not, have shown limited results with Septoria leaf spot.", is mind
boggling.
http://attra.ncat.org/calendar/quest...t_organic_cont
rols_are_there_for_sept


I'd be more inclined to aviod the risks, especially since a raised
garden can be put in place quickly, and to plant one tomato (to verify
that it is a pathogen) and mustard in the suspected area.

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2009/1...ia-growers-add
-hot-mustard.html
Mid-Columbia growers add hot mustard to fields

Using mustard as a so-called green manure crop in the Mid-Columbia dates
back more than a decade. Besides killing nematodes, chopped and tilled
mustard also fights soil-born FUNGAL PATHOGENS such as verticillium
wilt.

If the test tomato meets the same fate, follow suggestions by
http://attra.ncat.org/calendar/quest..._organic_contr
ols_are_there_for_sept

or call a local Ag extension.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
zxcvbob wrote:


How about fumigating with trichloronitromethane? It's pretty nasty,
but it breaks down and/or dissipates rapidly. It also goes by the
name chloropicrin.

Bob

Just no best place to start in describing this as a horrible idea.
Chloropicrin is related to the WWI gas, phosgene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloropicrin
It works on people by destroying the alveoli in the lungs.



I mentioned it because I knew it would get a reaction. ;-) But it's
actually one of the safer soil fumigants, used to kill fungi and
nematodes. It's a restricted use pesticide with a warning level of
"DANGER", so it would have to be applied by a professional (so there
wouldn't be an exposure risk to the OP) And it breaks down rapidly,
doesn't leave a toxic residue in the soil and if used properly it
won't contaminate the ground water or runoff.

Crop rotation is probably a better solution, but not as dramatic.

Bob

In article , says...

I mentioned it because I knew it would get a reaction. ;-) But it's

Which is very good reason for not mentioning it.