I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

In places with high salt content in the soil already, soil amendments that
are high in salts can be bad news.

Una

Una wrote:

In places with high salt content in the soil already, soil amendments that
are high in salts can be bad news.

I take it salt in soil is a sign of poor drainage and/or insufficient
rainfall. When Rome finally took out Carthage they plowed salt into the
soil. Carthage never came back from that and the place is still desert
today, but the soil is no longer salty. Even in a desert there's been
enough rain and drainage to leach it all away centuries ago.

One of the long term problems with pumping well water and other
irrigation for crops is it tends to build minerals in the soil faster
than natural drainage. The soil moves towards desert over a period of
centuries. There are vast deserts in the world that were once lush
agricultural lands. The desert of Iraq was one of the birthplaces of
agriculture and there was a History Channel show this week on a Sahara
site that was once a grain farming community.

Una wrote:
In places with high salt content in the soil already, soil amendments
that are high in salts can be bad news.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
I take it salt in soil is a sign of poor drainage and/or insufficient
rainfall.

In some places the salt is of geological origin: former seabeds. The
groundwater in some parts of the world is so heavily laden with salts
*from within the ground* that it is not drinkable and very few species
of plants can survive either. It takes a *lot* of rainfall to remove
so much salt.

One cause of desertification is centuries of extraction of organic
matter, and soil nitrogen, by humans. Intense agriculture does that,
where biomass is produced in one place and consumed somewhere else.

Una

Doug Freyburger wrote:
Una wrote:

In places with high salt content in the soil already, soil
amendments that are high in salts can be bad news.

I take it salt in soil is a sign of poor drainage and/or insufficient
rainfall.

Not necessarily, it is a complex issue with more than one cause, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_salination

When Rome finally took out Carthage they plowed salt into
the soil. Carthage never came back from that and the place is still
desert today, but the soil is no longer salty. Even in a desert
there's been enough rain and drainage to leach it all away centuries
ago.


Yes rainfall will tend to remove salt just as it leaches all soluble salts
over time. It isn't clear to me if the proverbial application of salt by
Rome resulted in the desert, I suspect there is more to it than that.

One of the long term problems with pumping well water and other
irrigation for crops is it tends to build minerals in the soil faster
than natural drainage.

That can happen but it is not the only way that soil damage can be caused.
Irrigation water can raise the water table so that salty water that was
safely buried comes up to interfere with plant growth

The soil moves towards desert over a period of
centuries. There are vast deserts in the world that were once lush
agricultural lands. The desert of Iraq was one of the birthplaces of
agriculture and there was a History Channel show this week on a Sahara
site that was once a grain farming community.

I wouldn't assume that all that was all due to salinity, over grazing and
other mismanagement contributed. It is much easier to damage soil and allow
deserts to encroach than the reverse.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification

I seem to recall that there have been some climate change effects in the
fertile crescent too (over millenia not the last century) but I cannot find
the reference to it.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Doug Freyburger wrote:
Una wrote:

In places with high salt content in the soil already, soil
amendments that are high in salts can be bad news.

I take it salt in soil is a sign of poor drainage and/or insufficient
rainfall.

Not necessarily, it is a complex issue with more than one cause, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_salination

When Rome finally took out Carthage they plowed salt into
the soil. Carthage never came back from that and the place is still
desert today, but the soil is no longer salty. Even in a desert
there's been enough rain and drainage to leach it all away centuries
ago.


Yes rainfall will tend to remove salt just as it leaches all soluble salts
over time. It isn't clear to me if the proverbial application of salt by
Rome resulted in the desert, I suspect there is more to it than that.

I thought that the forests of north Africa met the same fate as the
forests of Britain (cut to make ships), however I don't seem to find a
supporting cite for that opinion.

One of the long term problems with pumping well water and other
irrigation for crops is it tends to build minerals in the soil faster
than natural drainage.

That can happen but it is not the only way that soil damage can be caused.
Irrigation water can raise the water table so that salty water that was
safely buried comes up to interfere with plant growth

The soil moves towards desert over a period of
centuries. There are vast deserts in the world that were once lush
agricultural lands. The desert of Iraq was one of the birthplaces of
agriculture and there was a History Channel show this week on a Sahara
site that was once a grain farming community.

I wouldn't assume that all that was all due to salinity, over grazing and
other mismanagement contributed. It is much easier to damage soil and allow
deserts to encroach than the reverse.
I think you'll find that the raising of the salt level in the land
between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers via irrigation is the
accepted mechanism for the collapse of agriculture there.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification

I seem to recall that there have been some climate change effects in the
fertile crescent too (over millenia not the last century) but I cannot find
the reference to it.

David
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

In article
,
Billy wrote:

I thought that the forests of north Africa met the same fate as the
forests of Britain (cut to make ships), however I don't seem to find a
supporting cite for that opinion.

I was told that much wood was cut to make charcoal. The charcoal was
then used in smelting iron. When I was about five I once saw a pile of
wood smoldering just north of Philadelphia. It was 50 yards high by
about 300 round.

http://www.historyofredding.com/HRforest.htm

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

Daniel Moynihan and Dennis Kucinich in 2012 !

Bill who putters wrote:
I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was
various manures if I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

I think the problem has several parts.

1) What is suitable for domestic composting? I have composted corpses too
but you have to bury them deep or some kindly neighbour will unearth them
for you. My heaps are large and away from houses.

2) What is acceptable to the residents? In this district chicken litter is
applied to the fields in quantity (but usually only once a year or less)
which is clearly not possible in a city for several reasons. Some farmers
were using sewerage sludge often and not following the rules about turning
it in straight away. They were castigated and required to cease.

3) What can be harmful in itself to the environment? Some minerals eg
gypsum can contain heavy metals and so long term application is not good.
Some sewerage sludge can also contain things like heavy metals.
Inappropriate application of soluble fertiliser near waterways pollutes them
considerably. Blooms of algae and water plants can be a huge environmental
headache.

4) What is a reasonable price in cash? I don't know about the
sustainability of harvesting peat moss, I don't use it because it is very
expensive here and there are plenty of alternatives, probably because it has
to travel a long way. That in itself may render it unsustainbale here in
the long run.

5) What is not sustainable in the long term? Fill in your own blanks here,
probably anything with a fixed supply and a growing rate of use, petroleum
and phosphate rock are obvious. Anything that has to be carried a long
distance is doubtful. Anything that is a byproduct is attractive provided
it passes the other tests.

In summary use what is local as much as possible and THINK before you apply
it every time.

David

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease issues.

In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oi...in_supplements
A March 2010 lawsuit filed by a California environmental group claims
that eight popular brands of fish oil supplements contained excessive
levels of PCBs, including CVS/pharmacy, Nature Made, Rite Aid, GNC,
Solgar, Twinlab, Now Health, Omega Protein and Pharmavite.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear
by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various
manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the
soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a
mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease
issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

Selenium is bad?
I thought that was a needed mineral for the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oi...in_supplements
A March 2010 lawsuit filed by a California environmental group claims
that eight popular brands of fish oil supplements contained excessive
levels of PCBs, including CVS/pharmacy, Nature Made, Rite Aid, GNC,
Solgar, Twinlab, Now Health, Omega Protein and Pharmavite.

Whew... Glad you did not mention the Fisol brand. I take the one that
has 70% strength, deep ocean fish and no mercury listed on the bottle
and expensive about $35/bottle. Doctor Prescribed it for my Mom who has
AMD, Age-related macular degeneration, so if it is good for my mom, its
good for me?????

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

Dan L wrote:
Billy wrote:
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear
by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various
manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the
soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted
barber hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a
mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease
issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

Selenium is bad?
I thought that was a needed mineral for the body.


Selenium is a trace element required by some plants and animals, it is also
used in dandruff shampoo. It isn't very toxic. Mercury, PCBs and Dioxin
are another matter.

The principle is sound though that you need to to read the fine print
regarding minor components of soil amendments, especially regarding
long-lived and cumulative toxins.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Dan L wrote:
Billy wrote:
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear
by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I
purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various
manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the
soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted
barber hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

I only use Alaskan fish emulsion due to the mercury issue. I wear a
mask
when using blood or bone meal and dried manures because of disease
issues.

Another approach is to only use "organic" fish emulsion.
Besides Mercury, fish may contain Selenium, DDT, PCBs, Dioxins,
pesticides, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polybrominated
diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which are used widely as flame retardants.
All bad stuff.

Selenium is bad?
I thought that was a needed mineral for the body.


Selenium is a trace element required by some plants and animals, it is also
used in dandruff shampoo. It isn't very toxic. Mercury, PCBs and Dioxin
are another matter.

My bad. Selenium is a toxic pollutant for fish and water fowl.


The principle is sound though that you need to to read the fine print
regarding minor components of soil amendments, especially regarding
long-lived and cumulative toxins.

David
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

I'd think it would depend on what they are. I'll only use "organic" fish
emulsion now. Part of the problem is the vast amount of plastic from
shopping bags to six-pack holders that is in the oceans now. A
distressing attribute of plastic is its ability to attract and
concentrate PCB, PBDE, dioxins, and DDT. The plastic breaks down into
smaller and smaller bits, which are taken up by aquatic life, and hence
to the top predators (us).
Municipal sludge is out as was seen in the fiasco of Michelle Obama
trying to plant an organic garden where sludge had been sprayed on the
White House lawn (heavy metals).
Fresh manure or house hold sewage is acceptable, as long as it is kept
off the the parts of the plant to be eaten for at least 4 months.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...


I always thought that what was local was best and cheaper. I swear by
wood chips. Marton NJ 20 miles away gave me green sand and I purchased
granite dust in the day. Other things brought in was various manures if
I cleaned it up the coop or stall.
Green manures are a given sort of like roots trying to help the soil.
Dried blood and bone meal too. (Prions) I've also composted barber
hair and sea weed along with fish and game innards.

Question ....are some amendments deleterious more than others?

Peat got me questioning thinking.

It's a question most gardeners I know grapple with Bill. I live in the
country and the garden on this farm has been made on the side of a stoney
slope. Farmers don't put their houses on good soil, they put it on the
shitty stuff because income comes from the good soil.

The unimproved soil was appalling - dunno how to describe it but it's the
colour of the poo a calf with the scours produces - yellow, unhealthy
looking stuff - it's full of small rocks quartz and shale/mudstone.

Everything I need for the garden except animal poop has to be brought in,
but to get some of the animal poop eg, the chook poop, I need food for the
chooks to be brought in. I have to hunt the plops the cattle leave all over
the paddocks.

I recycle and return to the soil as much as I can but all rose prunings go
to the tip and in spring when I'm overwhelmed with giant weeds, some of
those go to the tip too as I can't get to them before they get seed heads
and I can never make and turn a hot compost. My compost tends to be more
weed piles that rot over time. I'm better at tumble compost bins. Dead
chhoks get buried in the bottom of these weed piles.

I've found straw bales work as a good soil improver for me and also sawdust.
The sort of quatities of peat that you Nth Americans write about using has
never, ever been possible here in Oz. The most we could even buy would be a
small pack that could be used to line hanging baskets with so we've never
had the chance to use it to add to beds to 'lighten' the soil. In fact I
can't even imagine why you'd use it to 'lighten' the soil. I add sand and
rotted stuff from the bottom of my weed piles or rotted hay bales to break
up my clayey soil. That and turning in old dead stuff dropped on the
surface from weeding.

Interesting question. I'll have to think about it some more.